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Old 6th April 2007, 12:23 AM   #141 (permalink)
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that's the problem.
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Old 25th April 2007, 07:27 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Based on some very sharp sleuthing over at Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/vi...c.php?t=23110), it appears that the Barghest from issue 26 should actually be attributed to Tom Moldvay, not Gygax.

There is a note at the end of that issue's Dragon's Bestiary column stating that monsters appearing in the Bestiary were Official, AD&D monsters. (This was an important distinction at the time.)

But I don't think that imprimatur lasted beyond that one issue, 26: no subsequent monsters from the Bestiary were included in the 1e MMII, and I'm pretty sure later installments had an explicit disclaimer that monsters in the bestiary were unofficial. I wonder if there was some sort of miscommunication between EGG and the Dragon, or if Gary just changed his mind.
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Old 27th April 2007, 07:23 PM   #143 (permalink)
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yeah, i've long suspected that the Dragon 26 barghest and the MM2 barghest may not be exactly the same thing...
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Old 28th April 2007, 04:14 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOZ
yeah, i've long suspected that the Dragon 26 barghest and the MM2 barghest may not be exactly the same thing...
Actually, they're pretty close -- definitely related. At some point I'd like to set the texts side by side to see what was changed.
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Old 9th May 2007, 06:19 AM   #145 (permalink)
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same here!
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Old 9th May 2007, 09:09 AM   #146 (permalink)
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A comparison between the barghest entries in Dragon #26 and the Monster Manual II (1st Edition) reveals only minor editing changes.

Strikethrough indicates words removed from the Dragon #26 text.
Boldface indicates words added in the Monster Manual II version.

BARGHEST
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2 (1)
ARMOR CLASS: 2 to -4
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 6+6 to 12+12
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8 + no. of HD as h.p.
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%/HD (ignore plusses)
INTELLIGENCE: High to genius
ALIGNMENT: Evil (lawful)
SIZE: M to L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:
Hit Dice Level Experience Point Value
6 + 6 VII 1,275 + 10/h.p.
7 + 7 VII 2,000 + 12/h.p.
8 + 8 VIII 3,450 + 14/h.p.
9 + 9 VIII 3,600 + 14/h.p.
10 + 10 IX 6,100 + 16/h.p.
11 + 11 IX 6,250 + 16/h.p.
12 + 12 IX 7,300 + 18/h.p.

Of the various monsters members of the deodands inhabiting the rifts of the Planes of Gehenna, the barghest is certainly the most common and one of the most fearsome worst. These beings tend to live in isolation even from one another, each having its own stronghold and force of servitors and ruling a smoking rift despotically. At times, however, a barghest will spawn, and its litter of six will be sent to the Prime Material Plane to feed and grow. Those which survive will eventually return to Gehenna, but while they are yet young they must needs feed upon the lives of men. Barghest whelps will be found singlyalone or in pairs on the Prime Material Plane, generally living near isolated communities of humans or with bands of goblins.

Barghests are able to assume the forms of a large war or wild dogs at will. (thus tThey are at times known as devil-dogs, a misnomer. Their natural shape is very much the same as that of a large goblin, and when barghests dwell amongst goblins, they will retain their normal form. While goblins recognize and worship barghests, other races find them to be virtually indistinguishable from these goblins humanoids. Their goblin hosts fear and serve barghests these monsters when they dwell in a goblin community, going to great lengths to bring them human sacrifices to the barghests. The barghests, in turn, slay the powerful enemies of the goblins and generally enrich the treasure possessed by their hosts.

When barghest whelps first come to the Prime Material Plane they are relatively weak, having but 6 (1d8) + 6 hit dice. For each energy level of human life theywhelps slay and devour, they gain 1 hit point; 8 such levels effectively giving them another hit die and additional hit point per die. (Zero level humans gain them barghest only one-half an energy level, so they are less desirable prey than are exceptional persons.) Likewise, as hit dice are gained, the barghest also becomes more powerful. Its armor class increasesing by one place with each additional hit die, and its strength growsing from an initial 18/00 to 24; eventually become equal to that of a storm giant — and damage increasesing accordingly as does also. In like manner, so too does the magic resistance and intelligence of these monsters increase by the unholy vampirism attendant upon the slaughter of humanity. When a barghest eventually attains full growth and power, it is able to shift itself to the Planes of Gehenna, where it will search out its own reeking valley rift.

What treasure barghests gather into their own strongholds upon the Planes of Gehenna is not known, although it is rumored to be great. Whilst dwelling here on the Prime Material Plane, however, they possess none personally.

Barghests are able to perform the following spell-like magic, one operation per round, at will: shapechange to canine/goblin-like form, change self, levitation, misdirection, projected image. Once per day the following spell like powers can be employed: charm (person or monster), dimension door, emotion.

When in its canine form, a barghest is able to move at double its normal movement rate (30” maximum), pass without trace, and can become 75% likely to be unnoticed when motionless, so that it can surprise opponents 50% of the time (3 in 6).

These creatures are hit only by +1 or better magic weapons. Barghests are not particularly vulnerable to any attack form, but, if in their canine shape they do take the risk of failing to save versus a magical fire attack such as a fireball, flame strike, or meteor swarm. Fire does absolutely no damage to barghests, but if they fail to save against such an attack while in canine form they are hurled back to their own plane. Weaker barghests returning thus are most likely to be slain or enslaved by their more powerful fellows. Even if they are not so treated, they cannot return to the Prime Material Plane without some form of outside assistance.

Description: As already noted, the barghest in its whelp stages appears much the same as a goblin of large size, although as they grow larger and stronger, there is a darkening of skin from yellow towards a bluish red. Its adult, eventually terminating in a deep blue skin color is bluein adult form. The eyes of the barghest are glowing orange when excited, but otherwise they are indistinguishable from those of a goblin. The canine forms can be those of any typical large dogs, and in thesethis forms it is almost (95%) impossible to tell from a normal dogs, except that other dogs will fear and hate themit, attacking at every opportunity.
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Old 9th May 2007, 09:49 AM   #147 (permalink)
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i'm satisfied - same thing.
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Old 11th May 2007, 04:42 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Very nice research!

I find quite interesting the casual reference to deodands as inhabitants of Gehenna.

"Deodand" is a direct Jack Vance Dying Earth reference; the "demodands" from the 1e Monster Manual are clearly related.

At the time of Dragon 26, I don't believe Gyagax had ever written anything about deodands or demodands as being extraplanar fiends similar to demons and devil.

So did Moldvay come up with a whole new class of fiends based on Vance, completely independent of Gygax?

Did Gary review the original Barghest manuscript and add the line about deodands, as this was an idea that was percolating in his head and would eventually see light in the MMII?

Or did Gary read Moldvay's Barghest entry and then became inspired to add demodands to the game?
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Old 23rd August 2007, 11:43 PM   #149 (permalink)
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I added the contents of the final two print issues.
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Old 25th October 2007, 05:22 PM   #150 (permalink)
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There is a new CR 6 loumara called a Caligrosto in the new "Demonomicon of Iggwilv" article in Dragon 360. Also a CR 32 Graz'zt.
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Old 6th July 2008, 11:33 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Please unsticky this thread

This is a great thread, but why does it need to be a sticky? There is, I believe, a link from the Monster Indices thread.

If this thread is unstickied, it will help conversion threads to stay on the front page.
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Old 7th July 2008, 06:35 PM   #152 (permalink)
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I'm a bit hesitant to unsticky these, as they are among the most-used threads in these forums. I've heard from folks on other sites use them as a reference, and they have among the highest view counts of any threads on the boards.

I'll think on it more, though.
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"Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man

Inside my hands these petals browned;
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Old 7th July 2008, 07:01 PM   #153 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade View Post
I've heard from folks on other sites use them as a reference, and they have among the highest view counts of any threads on the boards.
But are those views because they are stickied, or just because they are awesome threads?

If those threads are getting so many views from folks on other sites, then they probably aren't benefiting so much from the stickies as they are from being the first and second links if you type "Dragon Magazine Monster Index" in Google .

Heck, I use Google to find threads on the Creature Catalog parts of the ENWorld forums and I'm here all the time .
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Old 7th July 2008, 08:14 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Good point. I'll use the tried and true method of "let's remove it and see if anything breaks".
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"Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man

Inside my hands these petals browned;
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Old 7th July 2008, 08:30 PM   #155 (permalink)
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See, now I'm missing seeing it with the other stickies. *sniff* <duck>
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Old 7th July 2008, 09:03 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Let's leave it unstickied for a few days and see how badly we miss it.
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Support the Pathfinder RPG.

Save the succubus, save the Wheel.

"Hairy balls of the Gods!" - Korgoth of Barbaria

"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." - Batman, Batman Begins
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
"Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man

Inside my hands these petals browned;
dried up falling to the ground,
but it was already too late now.
I pushed my fingers through the earth,
returned this flower to the dirt;
so it could live, I walked away now."

Rise Against - "The Good Left Undone"
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