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X/day mechanic; what's the problem? (Mercule, looking your way...)
I didn't want to hijack the Sudden Metamagic thread, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercule
At the risk of sounding like an oddball, I'll throw out that I've banned Sudden Metamagic feats. Not because of any concern with balance -- I think they're fine balance-wise -- but because I loathe any "x/day" mechanic. It's a clumsy and lazy way to handle things, whether manifested in spell slots, clerical turning attempts, barbarian rage, or some other form. Using the mechanic in a feat is especially egregious.
3E brought enough good mechanics to the table that I'm willing to accept that as interim baggage, but I'm not going to heap more wood on the fire. My singular major hope for 4E is that WotC will iron things out with the sloppy "x/day" features (except, maybe, spell slots as a sacred cow) because that'd solve pretty much every significant gripe I've got with the d20 system. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in that.
I've seen this opinion before, from Mercule and a few others, and I must confess that I'm a bit stymied. I can understand why it might seem odd, flavor-wise, though that's primarily a personal judgment call. But why do people object to it mechanically? It's a simple, straightforward way of tracking limited-use abilities. I guess one could do X/hour, or X/some other increment, but I know that as a player, I'd never want to use a mechanic like that.
So, why do you object? And--rather than sharing any of my own notions to start with, since they're pretty off-the-top-of-my-head, and since I don't object to the X/day)--what would you folks suggest as an alternative?
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No idea. Seems like an entirely reasonable mechanic.
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I think it's mostly a flavor objection. The barbarian can fly into a mind-altering rage the first time he runs into an enemy, but several hours later when he sees his real nemesis, he can't (I'm just not that angry ). That can be explained by him being tired, I guess, but what about bard abilities? And if the barbarian is tired, why can he still run for the rest of the day? If he takes some time to rest why can't he rage again?
Mind you, I have no problem with x/day, just playing devil's advocate.
I find them boring. I'd perfer a roll to see if the ability works with an increasing difficulty.
But when would it stop getting more difficult?
The other part of the problem is when does the day reset? So the barbarian can rage and then when facing his sworn enemy an hour later not rage unless the first rage occurred at 11:02pm. Is that logical?
My favorite strawman argument is turning undead where the cleric worships an extremely anti-undead deity. As he calls for the power Anti-Undead-Deity, the deity doesn't respond because his cleric is charismatic enough to convince him that these undead need smiting. Huh?
As long as spell slots are in the game, though, I suspect x/day abilities will not go away.
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As I said, I can see where some of the flavor objections come from. But I'm still not convinced there are any viable alternatives. I don't like a whole mess of "roll to see if they work" abilities; it slows things down, and it means someone having a bad night has become useless. And as was said, when would the "increasing difficulty" reset?
IMC, supernatural 1/day abilities reset at a given time--i.e., the cleric's turn undead resets when he gets his new spells--while nonsupernatural ones like rage reset when the character sleeps. It seems the most logical way to do it.
__________________ Ari Marmell
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Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
the reset happens the same time the resets happens for the x/day abilites. I've never fouindf that the rolling of a few more dice really slows things down once people get used to the mechanic. Anything new slows the game down as people adjust.
My biggest problem with 1/day abilities is that, well, they're usually rather awful.
The barbarian's rage is an exception to this; it's clearly one of the strongest class features in D&D, right up there with Evasion and Divine Grace. Even so, barbarians end up dead far more often than paladins and monks. OK, not paladins, but being stabbed in your sleep by ticked off party members isn't a CR issue.
Consider the Sudden Metamagics. They're... lame. Most of the time, the player who took them just wasted a feat because he either used his Sudden too early or doesn't use it because he's afraid he'll use it too early. It mostly ends up being either overkill or a finishing blow technique to use against those really tough "boss" enemies; the latter is at least somewhat useful. But once in a blue moon, they do something really surprising and useful and either make the GM mad (if he's the sort that gets mad about players exploiting his creatures weaknesses) or at least gets calls of "Broken!" from the core-only crowd.
Power critical is the same thing, except that its absolutely abysmally awful, rather than sometimes useful.
Personally, I substitute an action point or action dice mechanic for most x/day abilities, or fatigue/exhaustion.
Power critical is the same thing, except that its absolutely abysmally awful, rather than sometimes useful.
What don't you like about Power Critical? I think it's a great feat. Furthermore, I don't understand the connection to Sudden Metamagic (what book is that from anyway?) or these other abilities, as Power Critical is not limited to a certain number of times/day.
I like the X/day mechanic. It allows characters to have some awesome powers while making players _think_ before actually using these abilities. Is now really the best time to rage?
What don't you like about Power Critical? I think it's a great feat. Furthermore, I don't understand the connection to Sudden Metamagic (what book is that from anyway?) or these other abilities, as Power Critical is not limited to a certain number of times/day.
He is probably referring to the 3.0 version of Power Critical, which allowed you to declare any one attack as a critical threat... 1/day.
He is probably referring to the 3.0 version of Power Critical, which allowed you to declare any one attack as a critical threat... 1/day.
I missed that one, and had to flip through a couple of books to find it (in Masters of the Wild), I guess I never paid much attention to the feat selection in that book. But yeah, that's certainly a whole different beast than the 3.5 version in Complete Warrior.
X/day abilities are a lot of fun for one, important reason: they add a layer of resource management to the game. Rage is a great example of this. At low levels, once per day a barbarian can become the best warrior in the group, even if there's a fighter in the party. The key lies in figuring out what battle is the one where you need to be that best warrior.
A check to use an ability can work, but I don't think it's an optimal design in this case.
If rage was activated with a check against a DC, you have a couple problems. If the DC is high, your ability to use the power is now mostly random. You might as well try using it as often as possible, since there's no guarantee you can use it when you need it most. You're better off getting as much use out of it as possible, and by doing so lessening the load in spells used, damage taken, magic items consumed, and so on, for other characters. If the DC is low, you can just use the power as often as you want. This basic problem remains embedded in the ability regardless of how you attack it.
In essence, you replace resource management and player decisions with luck. That's a bad design choice for this case, IMO. It can work in a lot of other areas - particularly if you require a standard or full-round action to make the check, and the benefit provided is somewhere below rage. For a minor benefit, it could be a great way to add a random element to the game and give players more choices in combat. I'm not sure it's a good choice for a class-defining ability like turning or rage.
If rage was activated with a check against a DC, you have a couple problems. If the DC is high, your ability to use the power is now mostly random. You might as well try using it as often as possible, since there's no guarantee you can use it when you need it most. You're better off getting as much use out of it as possible, and by doing so lessening the load in spells used, damage taken, magic items consumed, and so on, for other characters. If the DC is low, you can just use the power as often as you want.
For Rage, I'd suggest that it would be better to have a die roll to determine the after-effect rather than if the Rage works. The character Rages as normal but then must roll a Fort save to see if he becomes fatigued for the rest of the day (rather than just for a few rounds). Adjust the DC for Greater Rage and Mighty Rage. If you make the save by alot, you avoid the fatigue all together (thus eliminating need for Tireless Rage).
My problem with X/day is twofold. First, it is a huge hassle to remember the number of charges remaining for all the various abilities. This is expecially loathsome for things like gnomes spells which have multiple abilities all 1/day or paladins with X/week abilities mixed in. I have two character with four different X/day abilities. I had to make a special chart just for them. Secondly, I found that most players tend to save their charges to such a degree that they end up not using that power on most days. I'm also annoyed by things like Wildshape which limit both the number of uses and the things that you can turn into.
I've been trying to slowly eliminate all X/day abilities that don't directly involve spells or magic items.
I'm ok with X/day abilities, but I have been thinking of creating something like endurance points, to adjudicate how much stenuous`activity (Raging, knocking down walls, battles etc) you can do before fatigue, exhaustion and so on. I might add in other 1/day abilities, maybe even spells. I don't know how close that idea is to action points, I haven't read that far into AU.
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If rage was activated with a check against a DC, you have a couple problems. If the DC is high, your ability to use the power is now mostly random. You might as well try using it as often as possible, since there's no guarantee you can use it when you need it most. You're better off getting as much use out of it as possible, and by doing so lessening the load in spells used, damage taken, magic items consumed, and so on, for other characters. If the DC is low, you can just use the power as often as you want. This basic problem remains embedded in the ability regardless of how you attack it.
That's why I suggested a rising DC. So, to use the ability is a DC 10 with a +5 to the DC for each time it has been used. Sure, it adds luck into the ability but that luck goes botrh ways. The player could potentially use the ability a lot more then usual and would feel good about that luck.
I used to be bothered by the X/day format -- flavorwise it just felt arbitrary. However I always did like the fact it gave players a little extra resource to call on in emergencies or use to make strategic decisions.
Ferret's idea of some kind of endurance points that you use to fuel special abilities could work well and feel better from a flavor standpoint (BTW -- that's not much at all like action points).
However, now that I'm older I figure it will all work out to be pretty much the same: you get some abilities that you can use occasionally and thus have to budget. And the X/day format is awfully simple.
What I do is keep in mind and explain to my players that these mechanics are abstractions of whatever real process allows their characters (and my monsters) to use those abilities. Then I fill in the flavor text according to whatever fits best and most interestingly into the metaphysics of the current campaign I'm running.
). That can be explained by him being tired, I guess, but what about bard abilities? And if the barbarian is tired, why can he still run for the rest of the day? If he takes some time to rest why can't he rage again?
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