General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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First, me, I come at things as a writer... personally, I'd find that more of a distraction than a boon, though it certainly looks neat. But... armshadows. It looks neat until you actually have to move things around.
Much of what I describe in a game is more detailed than a visual map, and I'd rather enhance the imagination aspect than the 'game' aspect.
Additionally, I could imagine that in play a lot of time would be spent going 'wait, loading this screen... hmm, it's not loading...' and so forth.
Then there's having to plan everything ahead of time. It looks really nifty... but doesn't seem a 'win' for people like me, ultimately. I'd love to go over to someone's house and watch it being used, though.
Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.
I think the whole map-projection thing is, as we'd say in my business, "technically sweet", but the sales pitches aren't working for me.
What is your time worth? We're talking about on the order of an $800 setup. Even if you say your time is worth $10/hour, you have to get to saving 80 hours of time before this comes up a win. And, of course, the setup is useless if you're a DM who likes to "wing it". If you aren't going to put in hours ahead of time making up maps (which is also cutting into your time saved), this is not a win.
I cant argue with your time value statement, but I can say that I have made entire campaigns with the NWN toolkit and it doesnt take hours to do maps, ever. Scripting, now thats another story....ugh.
What is your time worth? We're talking about on the order of an $800 setup. Even if you say your time is worth $10/hour, you have to get to saving 80 hours of time before this comes up a win.
$10/hour is pretty low. That's only about 20k per year. We're all family men in my game. I'd say our average income is at least double that, but let's still use $10/hour.
Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.
With all of the demands on my time, it's well worth it to me.
This is so fantastic that I have to show everyone. I'm putting this on the main news page. I've reduced the image slightly to fit, and am attaching the smaller image here for convenience. Hope you don't mind, Steel_Wind!
Man if I had unlimited cash flow... or any cash flow.
__________________ DM: Mendorn the Transmuter's legs turn into goat legs and he grows horns. Your charisma drops by 2 and your dex goes up by 2.
Dan: My PC grew goat legs and horns? Why?
DM: You drank potions you found strapped into the armpit of a dead bugbear. Their idea of acceptable side-effects might be different than yours.
Jason: Come on Dan, you know you should never drink a bugbear armpit potion...
We spotted palm-sized projectors from the likes of Mitsubishi (shown in photo, InFocus, BenQ, Samsung and LG Electronics. All appear to be based upon using a 0.55-inch SVGA DLP chip set and have light output in the 10 to 30 lumens range. The InFocus, Samsung and BenQ units were concept products. Mitsubishi plans to sell its pocket projector for $599, and $699 with an optional battery. This seems like a very low price to us. The unit is very small and weighs only 400 grams. Brightness may be good enough for a 10 to15-inch image, but it is unclear if consumers will use such a product yet
And, of course, the setup is useless if you're a DM who likes to "wing it". If you aren't going to put in hours ahead of time making up maps (which is also cutting into your time saved), this is not a win.
You apparently don't like to read - or you choose to disbelieve what I've said.
The maps displayed here were created in 2 minutes or less at the table.
$10/hour is pretty low. That's only about 20k per year. We're all family men in my game. I'd say our average income is at least double that, but let's still use $10/hour.
Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.
With all of the demands on my time, it's well worth it to me.
We are also looking at enjoyment. If a setup like this improves your gaming experience, it's not just about time saved.
The idea of this just might be enough motivation for me to start working on some maps!
I cant argue with your time value statement, but I can say that I have made entire campaigns with the NWN toolkit and it doesnt take hours to do maps, ever.
Well, a quck glance at nwn.bioware.com didn't turn up the toolkit for free. That means more money. And I expect one cannot come up with lovely maps in 2 minutes the first time you take it out of the box. Mastery of the tool takes time and effort. I wouldn't be surprised if many of us would never get that kind of speed with the thing, since not everybody is lightning with a computer graphics tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boredflak
Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.
Watch your accounting. You should only count time that the system saves. Unless you waste five hours each session seting up your maps, it'll take more sessions to make it worthwhile.
I don't spend even spend an hour each session setting up battlemaps. At the frequency we play, it could easily take a year for it to pay for itself. Even more, because generally the time I spend setting up maps isn't fully wasted by my players - I often have the maps drawn beforehand, so I only waste my own time. So now we're talkign multiple years before we hit break-even...
Time saved is nice, sure, but I'm thinking comparisons... This setup costs about as much as 15+ really solid gaming books. That's a lot of content I could be using. Or, with that money, I could provide really good food for each session for an entire year. Or buy CDs for background music, or... You get the point.
So, I return - to those who know they really like minis in the first place, this is probably really nice. Quite possibly worth it, then. If I were independantly wealthy, I'd go for it, sure. But for a normal pocket, it is a heck of an expenditure for a maybe. The "go for it even if you don't use minis" line just doesn't strike me as wise.
Do you have to darken the room to be able to see the details in the projection? If so, does this hinder anything else, like reading, writing, etc.?
Yeah, we turn down the lights a little, especially in the afternoon. There are two halogen torch lamps and two more endtables in the living room where we game plus a ceiling lamp in the adjoining dining room. When we have the projector on, we reduce that to one Torch and one end table lamp and leave the dining room light on.
It is still very comfortable to read in, but it's a tad dimmer than you would probably choose to game in normally.
That is all a function of the projector you are using of course. If you had a truly kick-ass projector like the Dell 2300MP ($1349, new) which pumps out 2400 ANSI lumens in XVGA with a contrast ratio which leaves your jaw hanging open, your projector would be bright enough that you could turn all the lights on in the room and add a few candles besides.
Just to clarify though, we don't play in light as dim as the pics hint at. We dimmed the lights deliberately to make sure we got a clear picture. The image is *very* bright to the human eye but that is not properly conveyed in pictures.
Also - the image is projected from the top down and is so bright that "arm shadows" hinted at by some posters simply aren't noticeable during actual use. It's like saying a paper map is obscured by an arm shadow. What you really mean to say is that it's obscured by the arm you can't see through. I know that intuitively you would expect these shadows to interfere - but I am telling you - it simply is not something which we notice at all during play. We sit around on couches about the table which is at coffee table height. When we look down at the map image, the fact you can't see through someone's arm is not at all startling . If you got your eye level down parallel to the table I suppose you could see the shadow then - but it's just not something you notice normally.
I mean... really... You let your guys drink hi-balls at the table!
What, doesn't everyone?!?!
As for the setup.... awesome! And good to see it is up here in Toronto... if you guys ever have an open house to let people check it out, let me know!
The possibilities are endless as to the map uses, not just NWN and Dunjini but anything you can project could be used in this manner with some small editing and slapping a grid on it. Imagine a Hex grid thrown on real Nebula pictures from the Hubble Telescope for a Traveller game..... *drool*
-W.
__________________ "Traveller has always referred to the GM, DM, Keeper, Project Director, Stoyteller
or whatever other names you want to give this person - "Evil Sadist" is quite common -
as the Referee..." - T20 Handbook
"Better the heartfelt devotion of a free soul than the grudging obedience of a slave."
-- Githzerai saying.
a.k.a. N’kar’kkh, Githzerai Planewalker and Adventurer
Nice setup for a travel capable. This is something I've been working towards myself. Right now I have a huge train layout table I got for 10 bucks that can seat 10 around it pretty easily if need be. I installed a surround sound system (5.1) around the table. Hooking that up to a sound blaster in my computer allows me to *move* the sounds around the table as I like for sound effect and music. Combine that with wireless networking and a mounted swingarm moniter mounted for a built-in computer or laptop, there is not much I *can't* do at the table.
The projector I am going to rig up to the ceiling to do what this is showing (projecting maps onto the table itself) and have a swivel built in to point it at the wall behind the DM seat. I plan on making cut scenes and animations for some special points in my games, which then can be shown on the screen behind me for the group to experience. For instance, I can make a Star Wars opening crawl for my d20SW game starts. With full surround and the re-mastered DVD audio tracks, the effect is stunning.
Some of the better things you can only do if you have a room dedicated for use as a gaming area. I'm a lucky man who has a wife who games (she actually rounded up here own group from her co-workers! We have to "schedule" uses of the game room now. heh. Horrible problem to have, huh? ) AND we have no children, which makes it easier.
So far the price is the sticking point. My gaming buddies are not very wealthy, so getting more than 10 bucks a week is not really an option. I'm going to try to save up, or run some kind of fund raiser to help out, I think. Might be a fun option for the group... build comradery and the like.
Speaking of which, many DVD players now can show Jpegs and the like from digital cameras or burned CDs. You can get a boxed DVD surround set for less than 200, which covers sound and audio. Plug that into your projector and run a disk with the files burned to it. As long as you make a handy index on paper to refer to, moving between pre-made maps is pretty easy. Those same DVDs can usually take Component (RGB) video connectors, so the quality should be quite high.
If there is interest, I have a nice and very inexpensive way to make speaker mounts that I can share with people. 25 bucks for a mount is just too much to pay when the system would cost less than the 5 mounts you need!
Now Robert is lovin' that phat gaming table goodness, but We're not done yet.. BAM we're adding a projecting battlemap to the mix here.... Check out the ANSI Lumens on that baby!
-W.
__________________ "Traveller has always referred to the GM, DM, Keeper, Project Director, Stoyteller
or whatever other names you want to give this person - "Evil Sadist" is quite common -
as the Referee..." - T20 Handbook
"Better the heartfelt devotion of a free soul than the grudging obedience of a slave."
-- Githzerai saying.
a.k.a. N’kar’kkh, Githzerai Planewalker and Adventurer
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