General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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No need to be rude, Patryn. I already know about that project. Notice that it isn't finished yet, and that it only deals with Sigil, not the entirety of the planes? Nothing about Pandemonium or Mechanus there. It still doesn't address my problem of how would you present the wonders of the planes outside of a generic tileset, or where you would get miniatures of exotic planar creatures. Some may exist, some may not. That by itself limits your options, whereas your imagination is limitless.
I have to voice my incredulity. I really don't think you are being fair here. Sure, any thing in the physical world will have bounds that your imagination can surpass. However, I can't help but feel that Steel_wind deserves a standing ovation. I can imagine a bridge over lava: stone obsidian with carefully crafted tiles that are worn from heat and traffic, with an underside that looks like glass because of the polishing effects of the heat. Square columns rise on either end of the bridge and the lava is a mixture of orange, red and black with pustules of sulfer rising in geyser like spouts, blah blah blah.
Which is cooler? That description with the visual aid, or without it? Certainly the projector set up only adds to the flavor.
Trying to figure out how big an image I could get by projecting the image from the floor below the table (home-made 1/2" plywood 4'x8') through frosted glass (no shadows on the map, can mark on the glass.
Why not just buy a LCD screen tv and lay it on its back?
I've been mulling over doing something like this for a while, but usually decide the price isn't worth it. I hadn't checked on DLP prices in a while, and now they are looking much more affordable... Perhaps I'd better rethink my stance
__________________ Space is big, so is a spacemonkey!
And, I'd also love to be able to use a projector (or just a giant computer screen with Powerpoint, or something like that). It would be really cool to be able to say "you're walking through the forest" and project this big image of some green forest scanned outta NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC or something. (Occasionally I show players pictures from books, etc., but it'd be nice to be able to blow them up on a big screen.) I also like using music and so forth.
But... personally, I'm not very excited by the idea of projecting giant "DunDjinni" and "Neverwinter Nights"-style maps on the miniatures board. Those fancy color maps are nice, yeah, but the only REALLY important thing with a map is, "Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?"
So, I love the idea of using technology to enhance a game, but IMHO, I'd rather just take 30 seconds and draw some lines on a BattleMat to show where the dungeon walls are, and THEN say "To the north is a rough-hewn passage with fungus and mushrooms growing out of the walls. To the east you see a wooden door with a rusty padlock chained to it."
But that's my personal bias. I've never been very excited about map-creating software. Maps are supposed to be functional first and pretty second. (And if I really want to, I can just draw something myself...)
Sorry, I just had to throw in a dissenting opinion. It's still an amazing idea though!
First, me, I come at things as a writer... personally, I'd find that more of a distraction than a boon, though it certainly looks neat. But... armshadows. It looks neat until you actually have to move things around.
Much of what I describe in a game is more detailed than a visual map, and I'd rather enhance the imagination aspect than the 'game' aspect.
That's kind of where I'm coming from too. I like the idea of using a projector or other visual aids for a game, this just isn't the first thing I'd choose to do with it. I'd rather show pictures of things the characters encounter.
Quote:
Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.
You said it! It's so cruel for us Mac users... (sob sob)
"Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?"
This is really the time saver for me. My players demand to have a very accurate map. We have a great time with the table top tactics aspect of the game.
My players like to focus on problem solving, plot resolution, character design, and combat. I can certainly see how a projected map would be less useful for a game that focuses on character personality development and storytelling.
All of my maps are scanned from Dungeon magazine and all DM-only info is edited out. I'm kind of a Photoshop monkey, so it doesn't take me much time. Gridlines and terrain details are very visible.
You may have already answered this but, how do you get the scale right and how do you project a 1" grid using the NWN toolset?
__________________ "If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them."
-Jack Handey
In my group, we used the host's big screen TV (hooked up to his computer) to display the big dungeon map from RttToEE. We used a laser pointer to indicate stuff on the map, and the host used his wireless mouse to zoom in and out and move the map around for us.
I worked on an under table projector system as a test project with a previous employer.
The major concern was the distance required between the projector and the surface. The solution was to mount the projector (a small one from BlackBox) directly underneath the table top, but offset to one side. It pointed downword at an angle towards an optical grade mirror (one where the silvering is on the front of the glass so that there was no refraction). The mirror could be smaller than expected as it was approximately 1/2 the distance so that the image was not full-sized. The throw distance for a 24" x 36" image was about 6' and could be achieved in this method. The keystone function of the projector was used to make the final image square on the surface. The surface was a sheet of plexiglass with a vellum sheet attached to catch the image.
FYI: You can get optical grade mirrors from inside old Projection TVs.
The throw distance for a 24" x 36" image was about 6' and could be achieved in this method.
This is the challenge for most projector undermount situations. We have projectors at work that can project that size image from 3' - 4' away, but wide angle lenses like that are a little pricier. If you're really interested in an undermounted situation, you'd probably be best going with some form of flat screen TV.
BTW, the advantage of using a projector over a TV is the ability to fine tune the scaling/size of image via the projector's zoom controls.
__________________ "I hurt Firewing." is not something a huge number of people can say. "He dropped a parking garage on me," on the other hand, a lot of people can say. -Kazan, my Champions GM.
And, I'd also love to be able to use a projector (or just a giant computer screen with Powerpoint, or something like that). It would be really cool to be able to say "you're walking through the forest" and project this big image of some green forest scanned outta NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC or something. (Occasionally I show players pictures from books, etc., but it'd be nice to be able to blow them up on a big screen.) I also like using music and so forth.
But... personally, I'm not very excited by the idea of projecting giant "DunDjinni" and "Neverwinter Nights"-style maps on the miniatures board. Those fancy color maps are nice, yeah, but the only REALLY important thing with a map is, "Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?"
So, I love the idea of using technology to enhance a game, but IMHO, I'd rather just take 30 seconds and draw some lines on a BattleMat to show where the dungeon walls are, and THEN say "To the north is a rough-hewn passage with fungus and mushrooms growing out of the walls. To the east you see a wooden door with a rusty padlock chained to it."
But that's my personal bias. I've never been very excited about map-creating software. Maps are supposed to be functional first and pretty second. (And if I really want to, I can just draw something myself...)
Sorry, I just had to throw in a dissenting opinion. It's still an amazing idea though!
Jason
I feel the same way. At the risk of sounding curmudgeon-y, I prefer to keep the game as lo-tech as possible. The Nice thing about D&D is that its a game that you can still play by candlelight during a blackout. If the game has gotten to the point where everyone needs their laptops at the table, you might as well hook up a LAN and play NWN.
Ah well. Sour grapes, jealousy, and all that.
__________________ "A hobby should pass the time, not fill it."
-Norman Bates
A Poem by Droogie
Once again my wizard is stuck, Alas, alack, I have no luck. Rattle, rattle, rattle, CHUCK! I rolled a '1' and now I'm screwed.
I have to say that our setup with a simple playmat with the 1" grid, some minatures and a small horde of Lego men feels woefully inadequate at this point. After showing your setup to my roommates we came up with three conclusions:
1) We're poor students and you are not
2) You're higher level geeks than we are
3) We're incredibly jealous
I'm going to echo the earlier sentiment, if you ever want to have a couple people over to ogle, just let me know.
I am definately envious of this set-up. The time and money investment in a project like this might make it difficult to copy with many gaming groups. However, it is the COOLEST design I have seen!
__________________ Fairy Tales Do Not Tell Children That Dragons Exist. Children Already Know That Dragons Exist. They Are Born With That Knowledge.
Fairy Tales Tell Children That The Dragons Can Be Killed.
I feel the same way. At the risk of sounding curmudgeon-y, I prefer to keep the game as lo-tech as possible. The Nice thing about D&D is that its a game that you can still play by candlelight during a blackout. If the game has gotten to the point where everyone needs their laptops at the table, you might as well hook up a LAN and play NWN.
Ah well. Sour grapes, jealousy, and all that.
Well, I shouldn't be one to beat up on NWN. BioWare hired me and the rest of my team to create most of the art content for their upcoming Premium Modules.
So, NWN has been pretty good to me.
But for all of that, I'm the first to admit that compared to our normal pnp gaming sessions, NWN can't compete. Nor can Lineage II or World of Warcraft or any other CRPG, MMORPG or other computer game.
I don't have to sell anyone reading this thread on the sheer entertainment value and depth of game experience that a traditional face to face, over the tabletop RPG provides.
But that does not mean that we can't improve on it. It does not mean that we cannot make it more compelling and fun to play - and most of all, it does not mean that we cannot benefit from technology during our game sessions. Our objective throughout has been to steal some of the sizzle from computer games, while at the same time cut out the restrictions and the nonsense behind them.
The more I have used the projector in our game sessions, the more I feel that we may be truly on to something. If the price of projectors continues to fall, if the output possible from a portable projector like Mitsubishi's PocketProjector continues to rise and the underlying hardware and software surrounding all of this gets better and more focussed (or even if we have a diferent display technology which accomplishes the same thing, like a flexible LCD battlemat you could unroll and plug in)...
Then 5 years from now, setups like these can become more common, if not commonplace. And with some custom developed software to make it easier to do this sort of thing, we might be able to expand this hobby again and make it *cool*.
Five year ago there was a lot of pooh-poohing of laptops and RPGs. They were too expensive to ever ever be common enough to have any impact at the gaming table.
Well the price dropped and the used market in laptops got big - and now the discussions include how people use their laptops at sessions - not if they have one or not. The .pdf has become all the rage as a result.
Projector technology and high power LED lights made by Luxeon are getting to the point where this is not a matter of if they will be cheap enough to become commonplace, it's a matter of when. Texas Instruments' patent on the DMD array, the chip that is at the heart of all DLP projectors, expires in 2008. We will then see a flood of competition and a further significant price drop will follow.
Seriously - if you were 12-14 years old and you saw a bunch of people all excited around a table rolling dice with these minatures and this snazzy moving color digital map - there is an instant sizzle that can connect with the player and draw him in and do so in a way that little else can.
I believe that - properly done - EA, NcSoft and Sony etc.; they cannot compete with this.
The imagination and the story telling, impromptu acts and improvisation, and all the social camaraderie - we already know that these things are the substance and meat of RPGs.
But if we have more sizzle to make the game more fun for ourselves - and to permit the game to connect and appeal to others in order to allow it to expand and grow, I don't think that can ever be a bad thing.
__________________ .Robert
Last edited by Steel_Wind; 26th February 2005 at 04:19 PM..
Seriously - if you were 12-14 years old and you saw a bunch of people all excited around a table rolling dice with these minatures and this snazzy moving color digital map - there is an instant sizzle that can connect with the player and draw him in and do so in a way that little else can.
I believe that - properly done - EA, NcSoft and Sony etc.; they cannot compete with this.
Yea, but being over the internet keeps the crazy gamers who don't bathe from knowing where you live!
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Congrats for the creative thinking. Man, how I wish I could emulate your feat.
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