General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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Does anyone think that its realisticly possible that D&D and its players will ever manage to efface the awful and unfair socail stigma that dogs us all? Quite simple and if anyone has any ideas pursant to this goal... well please post them and share your ideas. everyone else, share your comments
Unless the masses reach total enlightenment, I don't see the stigmatas going away.
AR
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maturity consists in having rediscovered the seriousness one had as a child at play - Nietszche Ask any man what they’d do in the event of a zombie plague and their face will light up. They’ll go on and on about how they’d drive around in their pickup truck lopping off zombies’ heads with a samurai sword. - Jedidiah "Jed" Kirchner, Something Awful
Will gamers ever break the stereotype of the overweight, goatee-wearing, 30-year-old virgin who works at a comic book store, wears a t-shirt that says "Han shot first!", reads erotic Sailor Moon fan fiction, and still lives in his parent's basement? It's possible, but not likely; it seems like for every 1 gamer who breaks the stereotype, there are many more who reinforce it.
Although it does seem somtimes as though things are changing. Certain celebrities (Vin Diesel, who is pretty much the polor opposite of the stereotypical gamer, being the most notworthy) have publically aknowledged that they're gamers, and bands like Weezer have included D&D references in their songs, so maybe some day down the road gamers will be viewed in the same way as sports fans and outdoor enthusiasts are.
__________________ -Dark Jezter
"He who does not punish evil commands it to be done."
-Leonardo Da Vinci
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
- Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant.
Does anyone think that its realisticly possible that D&D and its players will ever manage to efface the awful and unfair socail stigma that dogs us all? Quite simple and if anyone has any ideas pursant to this goal... well please post them and share your ideas. everyone else, share your comments
What social stigma? While people don't react to it like football, they also don't treat me like a leper.
Will gamers ever break the stereotype of the overweight, goatee-wearing, 30-year-old virgin who works at a comic book store, wears a t-shirt that says "Han shot first!", reads erotic Sailor Moon fan fiction, and still lives in his parent's basement?
Also, I was going to go on a religious tangent, and decided to avoid it.
AR
__________________
maturity consists in having rediscovered the seriousness one had as a child at play - Nietszche Ask any man what they’d do in the event of a zombie plague and their face will light up. They’ll go on and on about how they’d drive around in their pickup truck lopping off zombies’ heads with a samurai sword. - Jedidiah "Jed" Kirchner, Something Awful
I don't see the stigma going away, but nor do I see it as D&D players being shunned. Just given an unusual look or comment of "Oh, you still play that game?" type comment. Not a big deal really. I either shrug and move on or sometimes the person is genuinely curious about what we do.
No, I don't think D&D (and all other rpgs, by extentions) will ever get rid of its stigma. Many people really do look upon it as something that you should "get over", something that is, at best, played by socially maladjusted teenagers who are more into computers than the opposite sex. This means that anyone over about age 20 who still plays such games (as I have found for far too long) will get rolled eyes, condescending looks, a few quiet smirks, and a lot of comments that revolve around the topic of growing up...
**shrug**
Probably explains why I don't game with those folks
Hey, I'm 46. I've been gaming for just shy of 30 years and I want to game for the next 30 as well. If someone has a problem witht that, then that is truly their problem, not mine. I also read Harry Potter books, tell stories to children, and think that The Adventures of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn is one of the coolest movies of all time.
Yep
Socially maladjusted and proud
__________________ Jack, you have debauched my sloth.
Does anyone think that its realisticly possible that D&D and its players will ever manage to efface the awful and unfair socail stigma that dogs us all? Quite simple and if anyone has any ideas pursant to this goal... well please post them and share your ideas. everyone else, share your comments
Nope. Our hobby is naturally attractive to people who lack social intuition; therefore it will continue to over-represent socially unskilled people. Therefore, there will be social stigma attached to the group as there is to any group that reliably over-represents this subset of the population.
While some groups that start out over-representing this subgroup drift towards the demogaphic mainstream, like computer programming and internet dating, gaming seems unlikely to do so because it does not present the possibility of more easily earned monetary and sexual rewards to people in the social mainstream.
__________________ A Fusangite
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“one must depart from the province of Lean-tong, north of Peking and that after travelling 12,000 li, the traveller would reach Japan, and thence to the north, after a journey of 7000 li, arrive at the country of Wen-Schin (the painted people). Five thousand li from this country towards the east is Tahan, which is 20,000 li from Fusang.”
-- A 6th century account of Fusang, the country across the Pacific from China.
Hmm... I don't know if some of the parts of the stereotype are even true anymore... especially the "computer geek" one. My friends at engineering schools find it nearly impossible to find gaming groups- most in their "subculture" have moved on to Everquest. On the other hand, I attended a liberal arts college, and found a very large number of gamers among the Theater, Philosophy, and Religion students... a group that, while it included a few "stereotypical gamers", also included a number of married couples, a few very attractive women, and a religion prof who used to game, but now just gave advice on constructing interesting in-game dilemmas.
Will the game ever lose it's stigma? Probably not. But, to be completely honest, after a certain age, that stigma doesn't really mean much anymore.
One of the biggest problems with role-playing is that it can become an obsessive hobby, especially for dungeon masters, and one that consumes time that might be more "productively" spent on career advancement, pursuing relationships, rasing a family, etc. On the other hand, in moderation, is it any big deal? My father has spent his adult life raising a family and building a multi-million dollar company- he also spends his thursday nights golfing, his sunday afternoons and monday nights watching sports programming, and regularly travels to casinos to gamble. It hasn't impaired his productivity in any fashion that I can see... as long as someone has the discipline to keep a hobby from taking over their life, it doesn't seem like a problem. And, if you do let it take over your life... well, at least make money on it. Though we can't all be Monte Cook...
__________________ Welcome to Fight Club. Lose the scimitars.
About the worst I get is "Dungeons and Dragons? I've heard of it.. how does it actually sort of work? Is it around a computer?"
I'm not a stereotypical geek, so that might help. A bartender/teacher with aspirations to geekiness. I often mention to friends that compared to them I'm 'King Geek' but when I visit the local gaming store where fat, 25something unshaven virgins are mentioning the latest unbeatable munchkin combination, I feel that I'm actually quite cool.
Around Aussieland, D+D never had the outcry that America did. It's just an obscure hobby; strange, obsessive people shoot guns and yap on about caliber and what not all day too. Same sort of league.
Labeling and stereotyping members of other social or ethnic groups is a human activity that will probably never go away. So, no, IMHO the social stigma of D&D will probably never disappear entirely unless it becomes so commonly popular that people like Paris Hilton do it, and I don't personally want it to be that popular.
I think another reason for the social stigma is that it's self-perpetuating. I've run into a few people who don't like to publicly admit that they play D&D because they don't want to have this stigma applied to them. If you want other people to stop seeing it as something to be embarrassed about, then stop acting like it's something to be embarrassed about.
__________________ It's all fun and games until someone loses a die.
Around Aussieland, D+D never had the outcry that America did. It's just an obscure hobby; strange, obsessive people shoot guns and yap on about caliber and what not all day too. Same sort of league.
But gun nuts don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose... Gamers are known to do that...
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On the other hand, I attended a liberal arts college, and found a very large number of gamers among the Theater, Philosophy, and Religion students... a group that, while it included a few "stereotypical gamers", also included a number of married couples, a few very attractive women, and a religion prof who used to game, but now just gave advice on constructing interesting in-game dilemmas.
At my community college I had a politcal science teacher (~30s or so white female). Then, a couple years later, I was at the university (not the community college, a local university) and she showed up the local gaming club to game. (And then never showed up again, but that's because she has a family life). Never would have expected that.
__________________ Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. -Teleport
I don't mind being ribbed about playing D&D when it's based on actual fact. I do spend a lot of my time on RPGs when I could be watching sports -- it's true!
Unfortunately, what a lot of us experience is stigmatization based mostly on faulty stereotypes (the Comic Book Guy), misinformation (the RPG/worshipping Satan connection), faulty causality logic (any murder or suicide that was "caused by" RPGs), and unfair double standards (RPGs are a "child's game" but fantasy football is a "normal hobby"). When someone treats me like a fat, obsessed, Satan-worshipping homicidal maniac who plays a child's game and actively avoids being normal, I guess it falls to me to try to chip away at these falacies and point out the problems with these incorrect assumptions. You can't always do so with strangers, but you can start to chip away at them with friends, family, and co-workers if the situation comes up.
Like quite a few other posters on this thread, I am somewhat bemused by the idea of a social stigma attached to gaming. In over 23 years of gaming across the globe, I have never encountered such a thing, nor have I ever encountered the "overweight, goatee-wearing, 30-year-old virgin who works at a comic book store, wears a t-shirt that says "Han shot first!", reads erotic Sailor Moon fan fiction, and still lives in his parent's basement". Or any cat-piss men, either (well, not any who were gamers, heh heh). A few peculiar characters, for sure, but no more than in any other walk of life. For example, my high school gaming group consisted of a mix of jocks, stoners, academics and reprobates; my college group included maths, engineering, history, languages and computing students; my adult groups have included police, military, self-made businessmen, shop-assistants, war-crimes investigators, philosophers, techies and a baron. In other words, just folks. Just a regular cross-section of society in all its shapes and sizes. Reactions to being a gamer run the gamut from "D&D? You mean, like that cartoon?" to "What?" to "Cool! Can I play?"
There are certainly socially maladjusted oddballs who game, but I am beginning to think that the idea that they are more prevalent in gaming is something of a myth. Or maybe I have just been damn lucky. I do agree with sniffles, in that I think that the idea is self-perpetuating. If we allow ourselves to believe that there is some horrible stigma attached to our hobby, we are only going to reinforce the idea. Personally, I don't give the matter much thought - being a gamer has never been anything but a positive thing for me, socially or professionally, and it's not something am I bothered about hiding.
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my adult groups have included police, military, self-made businessmen, shop-assistants, war-crimes investigators, philosophers, techies and a baron. In other words, just folks.
Sounds like an adventuring party right there. Well, maybe not the philosopher.
__________________ Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. -Teleport
There are certainly socially maladjusted oddballs who game, but I am beginning to think that the idea that they are more prevalent in gaming is something of a myth.
Which is what makes the stigmatization even more maddening -- that it's based on something that either doesn't exist or is very rare.
Sounds like an adventuring party right there. Well, maybe not the philosopher.
Hey! That's my girlfriend!!
(She played a rather frightening priestess of the death god, all the way up to 19th level in 2e. I never knew that Schopenhauer could be so scary...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricNoah
Which is what makes the stigmatization even more maddening -- that it's based on something that either doesn't exist or is very rare.
Actually, yes, I kind of agree with you there. Whenever I encounter the idea of stigmatisation in the media or (more often) on rpg boards like this one, it is extremely baffling and I find myself thinking "Just where is this coming from??"
(Edited for additional response)
__________________ The name that can be named is not the true name. Darker Days - a World of Darkness podcast. Email Darker Days.
Last edited by Mark Hope; 24th July 2005 at 03:28 AM..
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