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What do you think of Wolfgang Baur's Adventure by Design
I know I brought this up before, however things seem to be progressing a bit. I ended up getting involved at the lowest level (if I had been working full-time at the time I would have probably invested a bit more in it).
Do you think this has the possibility of becoming a popular method of adventure publishing?
Right now he's down to 4 themes:
The Black Forest: Old growth and ancient magic. The Flying Fortress: Aerial adventure suitable for any location. Steam and Brass: A clockwork city-based adventure. The Lost City: A lost civilization and its rich treasures.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Wizard paralyzed, samurai 6 hp, your Fiend Hunter down to 4 hp and 1 Con, surrounded by four dead Bebilith and one still alive...
Without sheathing the greatsword, with shaky hands unstoppers the small vodka bottle, swallow it down, and hurl it at the still standing demonic spider while yelling "come and get me!" just to allow the samurai to get the edge.
I've been following the blog since the news was first posted on ENWorld. On the one hand, I like the idea of being a patron AND being associated with Wolfgang Baur would be SWEET! On the other, for some reason "buying" a credit on a product feels kinda dodgy. I've been hemming at becoming a patron since first reading about it. I'm afraid by the time I decide, all the fun will be over.
I have the funds, that's not the problem. I think if I just concentrate on "getting a customized adventure" I'll probably pony up the money.
It's interesting, but I don't see it becoming all that common, even if it's successful. The author of this is one of those ex-TSR/WOTC guys that you've heard of, so some people will be interested. OTOH, he's presumably not got a following large enough to start his own successful company, like Monte Cook and such.
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Disco Stu loves disco. Trancejeremy loves trance. But also disco. And breakbeat. But I hate techno.
I think the ransom system is an interesting alternative value proposition and has had some notable successes (such as Dennis Detwiler's Delta Green adventures).
To me Wolfgang Baur's current project goes too far in the direction of design by committee and is more exclusive than I think the model requires. I hope he stops consulting, announces the final shape and release intentions of the work and starts designing not too much further into the process.
edit: I wouldn't pay $50 for an adventure of this length. I have my doubts whether the people being persuaded to part with that sort of money will look back and be satisfied they received whatever they imagine they're paying for.
Last edited by Starglim; 14th May 2006 at 03:48 AM..
edit: I wouldn't pay $50 for an adventure of this length. I have my doubts whether the people being persuaded to part with that sort of money will look back and be satisfied they received whatever they imagine they're paying for.
With the amount of input allowed at the $50 level, it's almost like buying a customized adventure (with a lot of limitations).
How much would you pay to have someone like Monte Cook, Bruce Cordell, Gary Gygax or even Wolfgang Baur write an adventure specifically towards your specifications (admittedly, this falls very short of that)?
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
With the amount of input allowed at the $50 level, it's almost like buying a customized adventure (with a lot of limitations).
How much would you pay to have someone like Monte Cook, Bruce Cordell, Gary Gygax or even Wolfgang Baur write an adventure specifically towards your specifications (admittedly, this falls very short of that)?
For a highly-regarded writer to write, say, a campaign introduction or a major component of my own story arc, based on my campaign assumptions, would certainly be an amazing defining concept for one of my campaigns. As you say, that's not what this is. I still don't know if I would pay $50 to run that concept campaign.
Possibly the discussion and involvement in the design process itself from someone that I respected greatly for his ideas of game development, as well as his finished work, would be a worthwhile part of the project.
Maybe I should clarify that the idea, in principle, of giving close specifications to a writer for the kind or style of adventure, the place that it should fit in a campaign and the direction that it should move my players (in terms of accomplishments, plot lines resolved or introduced and treasure given), is very attractive. I think this project gives over some of the wrong kinds of decisions to the patrons, such as the monsters to be used or the title.
Maybe I should clarify that the idea, in principle, of giving close specifications to a writer for the kind or style of adventure, the place that it should fit in a campaign and the direction that it should move my players (in terms of accomplishments, plot lines resolved or introduced and treasure given), is very attractive. I think this project gives over some of the wrong kinds of decisions to the patrons, such as the monsters to be used or the title.
This is a very interesting critique. So far, the project patrons have done an excellent job with monster selection, plot suggestions, and other feedback. What do you mean by "accomplishments" in this context?
I think the title choice is completely the right sort of choice. It has definitely provided great feedback as to what people really want.
To me Wolfgang Baur's current project goes too far in the direction of design by committee and is more exclusive than I think the model requires. I hope he stops consulting, announces the final shape and release intentions of the work and starts designing not too much further into the process.
edit: I wouldn't pay $50 for an adventure of this length.
Fortunately, you don't have to pay $50. It's just $5 for the basic "send a copy when it's done" membership.
It's VERY far from design by committee; it's a dictatorship with input. I'm writing the outlines and doing the adventure design. The input provides feedback on what people want. So far, though, most of the patrons have been pleased with the direction: there's not a ton of second-guessing.
The exclusivity is part of the fun. Only people who want it to succeed and enjoy watching it unfold are parting with money to make it happen. There are no trolls, no whiners, no random visitors. It's turning into a fairly coherent group.
On the other, for some reason "buying" a credit on a product feels kinda dodgy. I've been hemming at becoming a patron since first reading about it. I'm afraid by the time I decide, all the fun will be over.
We're only halfway to the fundraising goal, so the fun is definitely not over. The four concepts left are outlines at this point, no more, and the real kickoff is after we reach the greenlight level. If we don't get to the goal, I refund your money.
Thanks for the comment on dodgy credits. To clarify, people who support the <a href="http://customadventure.livejournal.com">Open Design project</a> will get a patron or supporter credit.
It's a little like the "executive producer" credit people get in movies. Executive producers put up the cash to make the project happen, and they have some influence over what finally hits the theatres. But in terms of credits rolling by on the screen, most people know it's not the same as actors, directors, or stunt man credits.
We're only halfway to the fundraising goal, so the fun is definitely not over. The four concepts left are outlines at this point, no more, and the real kickoff is after we reach the greenlight level. If we don't get to the goal, I refund your money.
Thanks for the comment on dodgy credits. To clarify, people who support the <a href="http://customadventure.livejournal.com">Open Design project</a> will get a patron or supporter credit.
It's a little like the "executive producer" credit people get in movies. Executive producers put up the cash to make the project happen, and they have some influence over what finally hits the theatres. But in terms of credits rolling by on the screen, most people know it's not the same as actors, directors, or stunt man credits.
I should say that I chose "dodgy" because of my own interest in the project and game writing. I'd like to be able to say, "look, I made this!". But as a patron, I would say "look, this was made possible by myself!". Certainly a distinction between the two.
Possibly the discussion and involvement in the design process itself from someone that I respected greatly for his ideas of game development, as well as his finished work, would be a worthwhile part of the project.
Indeed, I find that being the strongest value. The discussions are interesting, especially the ability to see a product develop throughout the process (with more steps than the usual adventure creation). All this for a mere $5.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
I should say that I chose "dodgy" because of my own interest in the project and game writing. I'd like to be able to say, "look, I made this!". But as a patron, I would say "look, this was made possible by myself!". Certainly a distinction between the two.
True enough. I'm hoping that some of the design essays and outline work helps others launch their own writing careers.
I briefly considered making the whole experiment about a sort of Game Design Boot Camp, but the time/money required to bring some writers up to speed would be cost-prohibitive. I still have scars from reading the Dungeon Magazine slush pile. :\
Is this definitely a one-time project or is it something you'd consider doing on a regular basis if the first project is completed? Is this a business experiment or is it something you're just doing for fun?
Is this definitely a one-time project or is it something you'd consider doing on a regular basis if the first project is completed? Is this a business experiment or is it something you're just doing for fun?
It's something I hope to do twice a year; I've already gotten suggestions for the second installment from some participants. It still need to meet the "greenlight level", where enough people have signed up for the first installment to go ahead. We're getting there, slowly.
I'm doing it mostly for fun; I don't think you can get a long-term successful business model out of it. But who knows? I'd love for it to be a long-running series.
This is a very interesting critique. So far, the project patrons have done an excellent job with monster selection, plot suggestions, and other feedback.
It's VERY far from design by committee; it's a dictatorship with input. I'm writing the outlines and doing the adventure design. The input provides feedback on what people want. So far, though, most of the patrons have been pleased with the direction: there's not a ton of second-guessing.
Glad it's going well. Without any sight of the work beyond what you've described in the journal, I'm cautious from starting out in too many online projects where 5 or 10 people, all with different agendas and not a huge amount of response to leadership or investment in the success of the project, have ended up pulling apart a strong initial idea into a shapeless generic mess.
I can certainly see that having laid down money would provide a sharper incentive to work towards a quality outcome. "For it is the nature of men to be bound by the benefits they confer as much as by those they receive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey King
What do you mean by "accomplishments" in this context?
An adventure, successfully completed, will provide the PCs with certain events in their history that will influence what happens in the campaign from then on. "My PC brought the jungle elves of the Lost City to peace with the human settlers", "My PC killed Orcus" or "My PC passed the Test of Worth to join the Knights of High Renown" will have ongoing implications for the shape of a campaign. I suppose to some extent these are more concrete instances of "plot lines begun or ended".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey King
I think the title choice is completely the right sort of choice. It has definitely provided great feedback as to what people really want.
You're considering the title as a point of discussion to provide guidance for the content of the adventure? That sort of fits with what I had in mind.
Coming from an architectural background I'm concerned to find the point of balance between the brief (what the client wants to get out of the project) and the design (the things that the designer does through his particular skill to accomplish what is required). I think a project could take too much of the wrong kind of direction from the preconceived ideas of patrons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey King
Fortunately, you don't have to pay $50. It's just $5 for the basic "send a copy when it's done" membership.
That's probably good for a lot of people as a minimum cost. I'd have to look at what I would pay for the same final value through other channels - buying a finished adventure off RPGNow or DriveThru being the obvious comparison - and I'm still curious about the social dimensions that convince people to pay the big bucks on a ransom. I don't think I would have much of a sense of involvement for $5.
I'm cautious from starting out in too many online projects where 5 or 10 people .... have ended up pulling apart a strong initial idea into a shapeless generic mess.
Coming from an architectural background I'm concerned to find the point of balance between the brief (what the client wants to get out of the project) and the design (the things that the designer does through his particular skill to accomplish what is required). I think a project could take too much of the wrong kind of direction from the preconceived ideas of patrons.
The "wrong sort of direction" worried me at first as well. However, most patrons are invested in the project's success, and seem to be more curious about how the process works than interested in running it themselves. I think this would be different if, for example, the client were drawing the elevations and plans, or the patrons were writing the encounters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starglim
I'm still curious about the social dimensions that convince people to pay the big bucks on a ransom. I don't think I would have much of a sense of involvement for $5.
Well, it's true that the $5 patrons don't speak up as much as the $50 patrons. They are literally less invested in the project, and I suspect some just enjoy watching it: lurking at the designer's elbow, as it were. The majority are silent.
As to why people contribute the $20 and $50 amounts, they could tell you better than I. Some are friends. Some are designers looking to publish their own work someday, and some are DMs who want an adventure written closer to their preferences than the ones typically published today. At least one enjoys the exclusivity of the project, since only the few dozen participants will ever get a copy of the adventure.
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