General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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If it's hacjneyed, where are all the other depictions of self-aware constructs as PC's in fantasy games? Elves could possibly be considered so, because they appear in almost every fantasy game ever made - taking a different spin on a familiar concept, though, saves it from being trite. As far as I know, this is the first time such a thing has ever appeared in a fantasy game, especially as a mainstream playable race. There are precious little incidents even in fantasy fiction I can think of outside of the Discworld books.
Now I know this wasn't directed at me, but still.
1-Just because it's new and shiny doesn't mean it's good.
Hard to believe we're debating the unintended side effect of a fictional experimental magical process and arguing that it "doesn't make sense."
I love the internet.
I guess both of you missed my point, intentionally or not.
So we have house Carnath (or whatever) mass-manufacturing golems for the war effort. Eventually, somehow, they become sentient! Awesome! Warforged PCs! This is cool!
But if you are a PC in my game, and you create golems, and, after the third golem, I have it become sentient and his goals aren't totally in par with yours... Well you'd be making a thread on here as to how I'm out to screw with you, since you spent thousands of GPs on making a golem and I didn't follow the book and now it left you to go dig in some dungeons with a bunch of misfits.
Have a golem created by a PC in your game achieve sentience by "accident", and you can tell me if it's something that "makes sense".
JohnSnow beat me to the term, but does replacing 'accident' with 'unintended consequence' make it any easier to swallow, or is that just playing with semantics? As skilled and savvy as the House Cannith artificers and magewrights were, they were like monkeys with guns as they developed and maintained their Creation Forges - this was stuff far beyond mortal ken, Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know, and whatnot, but they managed to get them working. Similarly, if you give a chemistry set to a toddler, and you might find some *very* interesting results after a while!
As far as missing features (which I think you alluded to in an earlier post, sorry for the lack of a quote, I'm on my way out the door) , it seems to me that they were filling a niche for their customers; the Five Nations wanted a replacement for the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. that they were sending into the meat grinder. There were other constructs that Cannith provided (Warforged Titans, for example), but those served different purposes.
*edit* missed your last post while I was dutifully typing this one up *edit*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barak
True, t3h intarweb, is is "serious business!"
Yeah, it is, isn't it? Sometimes it just strikes me as humorously ridiculous how we all can thrash it out here over something as silly as a game. Note that I'm including myself as one of those who are being ridiculous.
__________________ "Illegitimis non carborundum." - General Joseph Stilwell
JohnSnow beat me to the term, but does replacing 'accident' with 'unintended consequence' make it any easier to swallow, or is that just playing with semantics? As skilled and savvy as the House Cannith artificers and magewrights were, they were like monkeys with guns as they developed and maintained their Creation Forges - this was stuff far beyond mortal ken, Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know, and whatnot, but they managed to get them working. Similarly, if you give a chemistry set to a toddler, and you might find some *very* interesting results after a while!
As far as missing features (which I think you alluded to in an earlier post, sorry for the lack of a quote, I'm on my way out the door) , it seems to me that they were filling a niche for their customers; the Five Nations wanted a replacement for the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. that they were sending into the meat grinder. There were other constructs that Cannith provided (Warforged Titans, for example), but those served different purposes.
Nah, my reply would remain the same, really.
Now, understand, I'm not an Eberron basher. I'd be more than happy to play in Eberron, and after spending time with the books, I could probably be happy running a game there too. But it does require a tad more suspension of disbelief than your average world.
That doesn't make it a -bad- setting. Heck, I've run Toon games. But it's still remain a fact that Eberron is a tad more out there than your average world.
While the mass creation of Golems for war purposes can make sense, giving them sentience at the cost of other, more useful abilities for such a creation doesn't make sense... Unless you figure in that, later on, they will be ECL +0 PCs.
I think that's misleading there is nothing more valuable to a fighter than adaptability. Adaptability depends a lot on individuality and a will to be strong and survive. Sentience gives a being this thing. Sure, that's a double-edged sword, since the newly sentient soldier can then discuss its orders if it happens to not agree with them, but still, the advantages are WAY outnumbering the flaws. I think you are a bit too metagaming, personally.
Yeah, it is, isn't it? Sometimes it just strikes me as humorously ridiculous how we all can thrash it out here over something as silly as a game. Note that I'm including myself as one of those who are being ridiculous.
Ahh.. But I have very fond memories of myself and my buddies, in the hallways of my highschool during lunch period, discussing the fine points of D&D.. It can be fun, as long as everyone remember that, in the long run, it means jack.
I think that's misleading there is nothing more valuable to a fighter than adaptability. Adaptability depends a lot on individuality and a will to be strong and survive. Sentience gives a being this thing. Sure, that's a double-edged sword, since the newly sentient soldier can then discuss its orders if it happens to not agree with them, but still, the advantages are WAY outnumbering the flaws. I think you are a bit too metagaming, personally.
Probably not as metagaming as disagreeing with various tactical advantages. A fully obedient, mindless soldier, with higher capabilities, to me, is better than a sentient, potentially disagreeing, less capable soldier. But that's me, and I could be proved wrong on the battlefield.
Maybe I'll have to reread the bits about the origin of the warforged in the ECS, but I got the impression that the forges were originally intended to create sentient constructs, and that the forges themselves were a leftover magical invention from a prior age of Eberron that House Cannith put to use towards their own ends. Their sentience wasn't accidental: "That's not a bug. It's a feature!"
__________________ If you understand, things are as they are.
If you don't understand, things are as they are.
I guess both of you missed my point, intentionally or not.
So we have house Carnath (or whatever) mass-manufacturing golems for the war effort. Eventually, somehow, they become sentient! Awesome! Warforged PCs! This is cool!
But if you are a PC in my game, and you create golems, and, after the third golem, I have it become sentient and his goals aren't totally in par with yours... Well you'd be making a thread on here as to how I'm out to screw with you, since you spent thousands of GPs on making a golem and I didn't follow the book and now it left you to go dig in some dungeons with a bunch of misfits.
But warforged weren't/aren't/can't be created by PCs - they require access to/construction of an eldritch machine, an artifact-level 'thing' that essentially allows for DM fiat - more of a plot device than anything else, and the collaboration of tens to hundreds of individuals.
Were I a player in the scenario you lay out above, though, I'd probably be a bit miffed, but possibly mollified if a) it was fun, and b) you could point me towards some rules that backed up what you were doing that fit within the overarching, agreed-upon ruleset (although greater values of A would create a need for less and less B for me).
And I'm not reading your posts here as bashing, so no worries there. I thought the idea of warforged were out there too, but kind of neat, when I first heard of them (sort of a 'hmm, that's different, I wonder how they explain that one!' reaction). After I read through their backstory, I fell for them pretty hard! :)
Probably not as metagaming as disagreeing with various tactical advantages. A fully obedient, mindless soldier, with higher capabilities, to me, is better than a sentient, potentially disagreeing, less capable soldier. But that's me, and I could be proved wrong on the battlefield.
I'm actually sure you would be proven wrong. Tenacity, audacity, willpower, dedication, hope are just a few of the strengths a non-sentient being cannot know. These advantages allow you go the extra mile to ensure there's a victory on the battlefield. But what the heck! I'm a humanist anyway, and I have no way to prove my stuff here on this board!
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, it seems to me that they were filling a niche for their customers; the Five Nations wanted a replacement for the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. that they were sending into the meat grinder. There were other constructs that Cannith provided (Warforged Titans, for example), but those served different purposes.
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