General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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So.. What defines corny, then? Did I miss someone defining it earlier in the post? I'm too lazy to read every post.
I don't know. So am I. I think all those things are corny though, based on the m-w.com definition of it: "3 : mawkishly old-fashioned : simple and sentimental <told corny jokes>" since it's (and the movies I listed) are all harking back to old-fashioned pulp and noir themes. It doesn't bother me much, though. I guess I'm a mawkishly sentimental person at heart.
Then again, in many ways exactly the kind of fantasy the Original Poster seems to prefer seem to be corny as well, as they're also "mawkishly old-fashioned; simple and sentimental" as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonbait
If those things you listed are corny, J-Dawg, then I share opinion. If not, then I must fight you. We will appear in different areas on an alien planet and have to battle it out with just the weapons that evolution gave us.
YOU'RE IN FOR A WORLD OF HURT, DRAGONBAIT! Nature has "endowed me" if you know what I mean with godly natural weapons.
1. Who pays all the xp? I mean, when a wizard crafts a magic item, he pays XP. This is described as paying soul energy. Who wants to do all that?
2. It cheapens magic. Magic should be something cool, unique. This setting just kind of makes magic...blah.
Here's an example of who pays the XP: http://www.bossythecow.com/Golan%20Dol.pdf . This is Golan Dol, a dwarf Magewright 19/Warrior 1, legendary weapon maker. To quote the text: "Little is known of his activities over the next century; he moved from village to village, supporting local militias and battling invaders, but rarely revealing his full talents."
So unless you're an Artificer, you have to risk yourself to gain XP and then turn that into magical items. An Artificer has his Craft Reserve, and can add to it by consuming the XP used in creating items (destroying them in the process).
YOU'RE IN FOR A WORLD OF HURT, DRAGONBAIT! Nature has "endowed me" if you know what I mean with godly natural weapons.
Hm. In that case I guess I'll need to learn how to make gunpowder just from what I can find in a typical alien landscape, a tube, and some sharp rocks..
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I think Eberron is great because it's not the pseudo-medieval, Tolkienesque, "traditional fantasy" setting that Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and even (to a lesser extent) Dragonlance exemplify for D&D.
It's something new and different for D&D, and a very smart move on Wizards of the Coast's part inasmuch as it provides a setting for D&D that people like me - people who are sick of Tolkien's ing books dictating "the way it is" for so many players - actually want to buy into and play.
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OK, Krynn has elves and dwarves. It doesn't have orcs though. The same goes for Athas, plus their elves and dwarves are so different from the norm they should probably be called something else.
1. Who pays all the xp? I mean, when a wizard crafts a magic item, he pays XP. This is described as paying soul energy. Who wants to do all that?
I consider that all characters - PCs and NPCs - earn XP by doing well at their chosen trade. For PCs, that trade is adventure, so they earn XP by killing monsters and completing quests. For an NPC whose trade is magic items, it would be making a particularly successful trade, or gaining a lucrative new client. They'd only earn XP at a very slow rate from such activities, but it'd be sufficient to keep their item-creation work ticking over.
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2. It cheapens magic. Magic should be something cool, unique. This setting just kind of makes magic...blah.
But the fact is that magic in any standard D&D setting isn't cool or unique. Characters are fully expected to be snowed under with acquired or purchased magic items by the mid-levels, and by the DMG demographics tables the average hamlet contains around 4-5 wizards, plus assorted other spellcasting classes.
At least with Eberron, unlike other settings, you don't have to pretend that these things are hard to find even as the PCs start purchasing bags of holding just so they can carry them all, and the setting even tones things down a bit - low-level magic is widespread, but because NPC levels in the general population are generally low, and almost all NPCs take at least some NPC class levels in addition to - or instead of - PC classes, there's very little high-level magic available - it's as rare and mysterious as you could want.
Plus, since clerics of most major deities do not trade their wares or spellcasting services, and most priests are Experts or Adepts rather than clerics anyway, divine magic is, if anything, rarer than in other settings.
Um, ok. Golems actually have a mythological basis. They're a Jewish legend. As for teleportation, how do you think Gandalf got out of the Balrog pit? As for airships, I don't use them.
And warforged are alot more like Golems than they are Robots. My warforged PCs are still waiting for thier computer programs and built-in laser beams, damnit!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokamachi
Corny and unappealing. Sorry, Keith, but I'm just not into ninja detectives, robots, dinosaurs, or flying airships.
I play D&D.
You might want to take a look at some of the books Gygax has said were influences on D&D. Like Edgar Rice Burroughs and Jack Vance, especially his "Planet of Adventure" stories.
Besides that, dinosaurs aren't D&D? Come on now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlockLord
Um, ok. Golems actually have a mythological basis. They're a Jewish legend.
That just sounds like you're trying to rationalize an untenable position. Golems are robots in everything but name only. Besides, as far as I know, golems from legend were only made of mud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlockLord
As for teleportation, how do you think Gandalf got out of the Balrog pit?
He followed the Balrog up the Endless Stair of Zirak-Zigil. They ran up a flight of stairs, essentially. It's right there in the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlockLord
As for airships, I don't use them.
But they're certainly fantasy.
__________________ "Illegitimis non carborundum." - General Joseph Stilwell
Eberron has a ton of very clever ideas that I really like (and will happily steal and put into my Greyhawk campaigns). They really went out and came up with new ideas, breaking from the Tolkien/Earth history tradition, and I think that's to be lauded. I feel though, to a certain extent, it's a patchwork of good ideas, but it's a newer campaign setting. As campaigns are played and "support" materials are published (novels, sourcebooks), it'll develop into a full, well-integrated world.
I have no problem with Eberron's "theme" -- either you like it or you don't. I happen not to run the setting, and the other players in my group prefer Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, but I certainly don't mind if someone does like it, and I'd happily play it.
The only issue I have is with the campaign world itself. For some reason it reminds me of an MMORPG world. Like, "here's the forest zone", and "here's the swamp zone", and "here's the desert zone with feral halflings", and "here's the jungle zone with lizardmen", &c. The Mournlands and Demon Wastes are the "mid level" zones, and then Xen'Drik is the "high level" zone. Argonessen is the mystery land that your clan might be able to explore when the developers put out the expansion pack to let you level to 70. Ever since I looked at the map and thought "World of Warcraft", I couldn't get the "MMORPG model" out of my head whenver I attempt to interpret the world itself. Of course, it doesn't really matter that it's like that -- in fact it allows for integration of all the cool ideas that the developers came up with -- but it just doesn't appeal to me.
In the interests of full disclosure, I love Greyhawk -- primarily because it completely rips off European history and the Tolkien tradition. Being completely honest (not snarky at all), I guess it's easier for me to get into a game if I can relate it to something with which I'm familiar and I don't have to use my imagination quite as much. Or maybe in a different way. But given that I have such a negative "Reviewer's Tilt" and still like what they did in Eberron, I guess that's pretty good.
The only issue I have is with the campaign world itself. For some reason it reminds me of an MMORPG world. Like, "here's the forest zone", and "here's the swamp zone", and "here's the desert zone with feral halflings", and "here's the jungle zone with lizardmen", &c. The Mournlands and Demon Wastes are the "mid level" zones, and then Xen'Drik is the "high level" zone. Argonessen is the mystery land that your clan might be able to explore when the developers put out the expansion pack to let you level to 70. Ever since I looked at the map and thought "World of Warcraft", I couldn't get the "MMORPG model" out of my head whenver I attempt to interpret the world itself. Of course, it doesn't really matter that it's like that -- in fact it allows for integration of all the cool ideas that the developers came up with -- but it just doesn't appeal to me.
Looks like they're treating the wilderness with some respect as an adventuring environment, by adding some game artefacts to make it conveniently usable as such. I think this is a good idea.
__________________ "They've taken all the fun out of slaying things and stealing treasure!" - Bolt
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Yes, but *gasp* they're player characters. This seems to be the crux of the anti-warforged camp. As longs as golems are mindless monsters to be whacked for XP, no problem - but sentient golems that you can choose as a PC race? Eeeeeeeeeeevil and wrong! Or at least that's what those stodgy old bastards who live in fear of any game book published since 1990 keep telling me. Today, I choose to be evil and wrong (because it's a lot more fun than cramming a giant stick up my ass every morning).
I honestly don't know what to think of Eberron. Having never played it I can only form a vague opinion, but what I do hear makes me think the "premises" upon which the major changes in the setting were built are not properly understood. Few people really take the time to figure out the statistics on availability of magic in a typical D&D setting, and the way Eberron handles it is just weird.
I wouldn't turn down an Eberron game if I knew the DM was very good, but I'm not going to actively seek out the setting. I think the main stumbling block to enjoying the setting is probably the fact that it's just not my style, and it looks to me like some of the concepts were implemented without really understanding how magic in a standard D&D world would realistically be able to impact the world.
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Or at least that's what those stodgy old bastards who live in fear of any game book published since 1990 keep telling me. Today, I choose to be evil and wrong (because it's a lot more fun than cramming a giant stick up my ass every morning).
I never knew it was possible to extrapolate so much about someone's personality just based on the fact that they think that magic robot PCs are lame.
__________________ "They've taken all the fun out of slaying things and stealing treasure!" - Bolt
Copy, paste and redesign your way to your own ideal custom game with the Swords & Wizardry.doc file. Renovate the elf, build a rogue or thief, and make all your favourite rules and splat core.
I never knew it was possible to extrapolate so much about someone's personality just based on the fact that they think that magic robot PCs are lame.
Actually, it's based more on the fact that I'm familiar with a lot those stodgy old bastards by name from other forums where making sophomoric jokes about any game published in the last ten years and the people who play them is a way of life for many. In other words, it's based on an observed, long-standing, and pronounced behavior pattern.
As far as "magic robots", none of the warforged detractors (here or elsewhere) has yet to explain why golems are perfectly acceptable as walking bags of hit points, but not as sentient PCs. I'm really kind of curious. I suspect the only answer is what I've already hypothesized, though (i.e. "It's new and different, therefore it is bad and wrong!").
Feel free to prove me wrong. Tell me why golems are acceptable as monsters, but not as PCs.
That just sounds like you're trying to rationalize an untenable position. Golems are robots in everything but name only. Besides, as far as I know, golems from legend were only made of mud.
Although the golem of legend was made of mud/clay, there exist equivalent creatures in mythology and fantasy - Talos of greek legend is the prototypical iron golem.
In other words, it's based on an observed, long-standing, and pronounced behavior pattern.
Yeah, and I bet you were an unbiased judge of them too. There are two kinds of fools, you know.
__________________ "They've taken all the fun out of slaying things and stealing treasure!" - Bolt
Copy, paste and redesign your way to your own ideal custom game with the Swords & Wizardry.doc file. Renovate the elf, build a rogue or thief, and make all your favourite rules and splat core.
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