What's the big deal with point buy?

[Altalazar]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

Yarr, here be a warning I shan't put in Piratese, harr harr:

Next person to use a gun reference to make a point (or not) gets a free three day suspension from the site. Political discussions are expressly forbidden, and you can bet youir squid-infested anchor chain that gun control counts as political. Please use other analogies to make your point.

Wow, even analogies are off-limits? What if we talk about, instead, crossbows, and how the town watch is trained to use them...

[airwalkrr]

Originally Posted by Hussar

I really gotta ask. How? Is it the scintillating wit you bring? Sorry, can't be. With a 21 point buy dwarf fighter, you've got a 10 int at best. Perhaps its the deeply inciteful plans you craft. Oh wait, nope. 21 point buy dwarf fighter - 8 Wis in all likelihood. Perhaps its your incredible feats of strength? Huh? You've got a 14 strength AT BEST, so that can't be it.

Or, could it possibly be that you don't actually play the character that's on paper, but ignore the stats in favour of doing whatever you think is best all the time?

It isn't my character; it is a PC in a game I run. The dwarf has a 6 Charisma and he's the de facto leader of the party simply because he is assertive. That and he has the leadership feat. The player actually roleplays the 6 Charisma very well by being gruff, blunt, and rude. But he manages to set party policy by leveraging the fact that he is a the one taking most of the hits. He is always the first into the room, usually the first to get hit, and the sufferer of the most deaths (two).

His Strength, which is a 21 counting his belt of giant strength +4, is far better than any other character's meaning he usually dishes out the most damage. He is a dwarf with levels of exotic weapon master so his power attacking damage is quite painful. As far as roleplaying the other abilities that you actually roleplay (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma), he does all of those very well. He is none too bright, but not an idiot (Int 10). He isn't the keenest fellow, but he makes the right decisions in a crunch (Wis 12). He is rude, conceited, and lacking in social graces (Cha 6; part of the reason he picked up a bard cohort, to remind him when to keep his mouth shut).

Originally Posted by Hussar

As far as stealing the stat boost items goes, that's an interesting idea. Do your NPC's regularly walk around casting detect magic on random people in towns and then rob them when they find something juicy enough?

Smart thieves certainly do! In a cosmopolitan city like Greyhawk, you can bet your ass that there are mages in the Thieves' Guild who point out soft targets like wet-behind-the-ears adventurers with more loot than they know how to handle.

Originally Posted by Hussar

Otherwise, how could they possibly know that any of the character's items are magical? How very... Everquest of you.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but 30% of magical items glow, at least according to the RAW (you may house rule that they do not, but that is another issue altogether). That's a dead giveaway. If you are wearing six magical items, two of them will probably have a rather unnatural radiance. So sans detect magic/arcane sight/greater arcane sight there are still ways for even the dumb half-orc thief to recognize you are carrying valuable stuff.

[airwalkrr]

Originally Posted by Nonlethal Force

As the one who originated the reference, I'll gladly ask for forgiveness. I didn't mean to tread on the rules, it was certainly not intentional. I honestly didn't think of it as a political discussion, but I get your point. Being made aware, I will certainly abide!

As will I. Didn't think of it as being political. Sorry.

[WayneLigon]

Originally Posted by Hussar

Otherwise, how could they possibly know that any of the character's items are magical? How very... Everquest of you.

I think I'm going to propose that using a video game reference as a smarmy, smirking backhanded insult is the equivalent of Godiwinng (referencing Hitler) a thread on a gaming board. Now we just need a name for it. Hmmm.

[Cedric]

I've made it clear that I'm all in the "roll d'em bones" corner of this boxing ring. However, I would like to add a caveat.

If you are stuck in a situation where you are forced to play with people who you just flat CANNOT trust to play by the rules. You may have better luck with point buy...because a die hard cheater (heh, pun) will find a way to roll up some awesome stats even when all the players roll together.

Likewise, if you're running a game day game in a local store or running a convention game, point buy will probably work better for you (especially since you can post the point buy rules before hand and have people show up with characters).

If you're in a seasoned group of friends that you all trust and know...offer both choices. Just try hard to balance the die rolling method you are using with a point buy method. For this, I prefer to use a die rolling method that is 'slightly' more favorable than point buy. Because you're taking a chance...bigger risks, the chance for bigger rewards, etc.

But, if I'm in that group, expect to see four of my black d6s with the rep pips come out and start getting warmed up.

[Nellisir]

Originally Posted by Nonlethal Force

Seriously? I mean this as an honest request so as to not derail this pretty cool thread ... but could you start a new thread describing how this has effected your game? I'd love to speak more on this subject and how you think it has/hasn't affected your game. Things like:

- How do you handle ability score adjustments ever four levels?
- How your players reacted. Where they used to the original system? Did it take a long time to adjust?
- How do you do things like Tomes and Manuals that give ability score boost?

And anything else you can speak from experience. Personally, I think this idea is cool. I just think it would take a bit or reworking to make some sections of the rules work.

OK. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.ph...59#post3072559

[Nellisir]

Originally Posted by Crothian

So now they just have descending stats in order of importance?

Yes. Except for the champion who, due to an inexplicable brain-fart, gave himself a -1 in Charisma. Since all the champion's abilities are 1+Charisma per day....

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by airwalkrr

*snip*



Smart thieves certainly do! In a cosmopolitan city like Greyhawk, you can bet your ass that there are mages in the Thieves' Guild who point out soft targets like wet-behind-the-ears adventurers with more loot than they know how to handle.

Fair enough if you're actually playing in a major city. How often does this happen in the small towns that low level characters typically start in. Besides that, how do the thieves know that the PC is "wet behind the ears"? Wouldn't the presence of major magic items generally deter would be thieves who would look for much softer targets?

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but 30% of magical items glow, at least according to the RAW (you may house rule that they do not, but that is another issue altogether). That's a dead giveaway. If you are wearing six magical items, two of them will probably have a rather unnatural radiance. So sans detect magic/arcane sight/greater arcane sight there are still ways for even the dumb half-orc thief to recognize you are carrying valuable stuff.

Reference? I haven't seen that one before. From the SRD (bold mine)

Originally Posted by SRD

Light Generation

Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell (bright light in a 20-foot radius, shadowy light in a 40-foot radius). These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can’t be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.

Note, that only applies to weapons, and not wonderous items.

But, this is going in circles. You see nothing wrong with allowing a PC to have the equivalent of thousands of gold worth of stat boost items or being effectively one or two levels ahead of other PC's. I do. I use stat buy precisely because of this. I've seen far too many poor campaigns where the star PC is so far ahead of the rest of the party that it's simply no fun. I've also seen many DM's complain about how their party is blitzing through encounters that should be challenging without actually taking the time to realize that the PC's being played are effectively one or two levels higher due to high stats.

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by Hussar

But, this is going in circles. You see nothing wrong with allowing a PC to have the equivalent of thousands of gold worth of stat boost items or being effectively one or two levels ahead of other PC's. I do. I use stat buy precisely because of this. I've seen far too many poor campaigns where the star PC is so far ahead of the rest of the party that it's simply no fun. I've also seen many DM's complain about how their party is blitzing through encounters that should be challenging without actually taking the time to realize that the PC's being played are effectively one or two levels higher due to high stats.

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile this with the fact that I can make a MUCH more effective wizard or sorceror on 28 point buy, when compared to someone elses Monk or Paladin?

In order to make a monk or paladin really shine and be very enjoyable to play (both classes are arguably underpowered), you need above average stats. At least with die rolling you have a chance at being able to play an effective version of the character you have imagined, and if your stats merely come out so-so...there's still the option of Sorceror, Wizard, Druid, etc. Classes which can function well with one decent stat and one good stat.

Again, I'm not saying that point buy has no place in D&D, I just don't think it should be a method used to force balance into party dynamics.

[wingsandsword]

Originally Posted by airwalkrr

Do you make your PCs roll or do you use point buy? It seems like every other DM I know uses point buy and I cannot help but feel that point buy has spoiled a lot of players into thinking they can create a character with no holes. This isn't chess. It's D&D. There is randomness in the game and I think players need to get over it. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think point buys are as great of an "equalizer" as people seem to think they are. To me, the only advantage to point buy is that you can allow PCs to create more powerful characters if you want to run a more powerful campaign. I recognize the need for point buys in massive campaigns such as living campaigns where it is impossible to police everyone's rolls, but for my home campaign, I think a point buy is needless.

I don't let players roll, point buy is mandatory in games I run.

I don't do it to protect players from poor rolls, I use it to protect the campaign from overpowered, overlucky rolls, in creating characters so powerful they overshadow the entire campaign, and are by blessing of high ability scores, effectively a level or more higher than the rest of the party.

All characters, at creation, should be created equal. Why bother to set a standard starting level and standard starting money, if you have one character who fairly rolled 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (which is a legal, non-rerollable character) and a character who rolled 18, 17, 17, 16, 16, 15 (I've seen that rolled on fair dice right in front of me before).

Random die-rolling character creation is a relic of a bygone era, when you would also roll to see if your character had psionic talent, roll for 1st level hit points, roll for everything. (I know some DM's that made PC's roll for everything from family background, social strata, if the character is currently wanted for any crimes, sexual orientation, hair color, eye color, virtually every aspect of the character be randomly determined).

Once the game begins, in combat and such, yes, there is a random element, but I don't see why character creation itself, especially something as fundamental as ability scores, should be so random.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Originally Posted by WayneLigon

I think I'm going to propose that using a video game reference as a smarmy, smirking backhanded insult is the equivalent of Godiwinng (referencing Hitler) a thread on a gaming board. Now we just need a name for it. Hmmm.

I agree. Allow me to codify this:

Originally Posted by Godwin's Law, revised

As an online discussion of RPGs grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving video games approaches one.

Originally Posted by corollary

Once such a comparison has been made, the thread is over, and whoever made the comparison has lost whatever argument he was attempting to make.

Originally Posted by addendum

The words "video games" can be replaced by "roll-playing", "munchkinning", or any of several other phrases designed to prematurely drive the thread into the ground. Quirks's exception also applies here: if the individual "Godwinning" the thread is recognized as doing so, the thread is not over, but that individual's line of argument is still presumed to have been unsuccessful.

[Acid_crash]

I prefer point buy because in my mind everyone begins on equal footing. Someone can specialize in one or two stats, but no one is great in all of them.

I also like to randomly roll, but I do it like this.

3 columns, 4d6-L 6 times per column, reroll 1's one time. After the three columns are done, pick the column you want to play. If I don't allow rerolls, when the column is picked, each person rolls 1d3+1 and gets that many bonus points to put into their ability scores, nothing higher than an 18.

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I would never allow point buy, and haven't found that ability scores are nearly as important as luck of the dice and player ability to make smart choice and sound tactical decisions.

[DungeonmasterCal]

Originally Posted by Phasics

what your DM dosent trust you when you say you rolled 18 18 18 18 18 17 at home before the game session ?

I actually witnessed a set of rolls like this once with the DM in my first gaming group.

[Hussar]

Isn't it funny. I'm getting hosed here for comparing Airwalkrr's behavior to Everquest behavior where it is common for players to stalk newbies in order to kill them and steal their equipment - a behaviour that is well known, but Airwalkrr gets to trot out the idea that DM's should punish players for having items by using completely metagame knowledge and IMO, very unrealistic behavior, and no one has a problem with this.

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile this with the fact that I can make a MUCH more effective wizard or sorceror on 28 point buy, when compared to someone elses Monk or Paladin?

In order to make a monk or paladin really shine and be very enjoyable to play (both classes are arguably underpowered), you need above average stats. At least with die rolling you have a chance at being able to play an effective version of the character you have imagined, and if your stats merely come out so-so...there's still the option of Sorceror, Wizard, Druid, etc. Classes which can function well with one decent stat and one good stat.

Again, I'm not saying that point buy has no place in D&D, I just don't think it should be a method used to force balance into party dynamics.

First off, a monk with a 28 point buy is hardly ineffective, and nor is a Paladin. I don't buy the idea that either class must have very high stats in order to be useful. In fact, since the monk gets AC bonuses for both wisdom and dex, he can afford to put lower scores in both and still get the same effect. A 28 buy character won't have 18's, true, but, like Crothian, I don't see it as a huge problem for the monk to have a 14 str while the fighter has an 18.

Actually, the point buy allows some of these classes to shine. With a 25 point buy, only the ranger is going to have the two weapon fighting feats beyond the first one. The monk is likely the only one who will have improved trip since few fighters with that point buy will take the Int.

Since the points are equal overall, I don't have a problem. Monk is perhaps a poor choice, but, it's generally agreed that monks are a fairly weak class to begin with. Buffing them up with higher stats isn't going to make it a better class. At best, that's a patch. Besides, a monk with higher stats isn't suddenly better than a fighter with higher stats.

Really, wizard is a bit of a hard one, since it only needs one score. You could make a pretty effective wizzie with a 15 point buy.