General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
By the way, if you can pick up the Enemy Within Campaign I can almost guarantee that you will love it... It would be more effort to convert them for DnD but it might work if you limited the magic available and were very, very miserly with experience rewards - has anyone tried this?).
omrob's old 3e dnd game was set in the WFRP milieu, and I believe he was intending for us to eventually get to it... he did a conversion of the Doom Stones campaign. Unfortunately, his car was stolen with all of his gaming stuff in it, and when they recovered the car, the only thing missing was his bag of gaming material. So we never got to finish the campaign.
I WISH Chris and Green Ronin were more involved with the ongoing development of the WFRP line. The core book is excellent (more typos than I would like, but still, on the whole, excellent). Subsequent releases have been disappointing, both in the quality of their editing and the quality of their content. IMO, most of the supplements are about 20% "GREAT STUFF!", 30% "Eh, this is OK", and 50% "Ugh! My 10 year old nephew writes stuff that's better than this (and with fewer spelling errors)". The notable exception so far has been the Old World Bestiary, which I highly recommend.
And I find that Green Ronin does a remarkable Job with the 2nd Edition Products, given that they have to incorporate all the History of the Old World of all the Warhammer Tabletop Books and all the Novels and make them appelealing for Warhammer Newbees and Old Campaigners. And on top of all the "Fluff" that they have to add good "Crunch" ie. put all the Fluff into 2nd Ed. rules.
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A fun, fun game - perfect for a break from D&D. Your character probably won't advance to the status of great heroes, but more likely sort of slide along. Even as they become more competent, injury and sanity will take their toll. But that's part of the charm - instead of becoming rich and famous, your bragging rights revolve around what kind of terrible situations you have survived - just like war veterans.
A common feature of the WFRP campaigns I have been involved in is that sooner or later the PCs seem to end up as fugitives from the law - even when that wasn't actually the intention from the GM. I don't know why, but it almost seems like a law of nature.
And to get into the proper mood, I can recommend the following two connected essays. They are about the 1st edition, but still valid:
Does anyone here play this? Anyone know anything about it?
[BTW, what's the story with the Black Industries/Green Ronin thing? Which company actually makes Warhammer FRPG? And how does this relate to Games Workshop?]
Yes, I play it. It has replaced (GASP!) D&D as my current fantasy rpg. I love it because it lends itself to playing a combination of Call of Cthulhu and D&D, which me and my players enjoy.
The GRR/BI/GW thing is quite simple really. Games Workshop owns Black Library, which produces books for the Warhammer franchise. Black Industries is the gaming part of Black Library. Black Industries have contracted the development of the WFRP game to Green Ronin.
So the chain is GW to BL to BI to GRR and back again.
While I love the game, I have yet to type up a lengthy explanation as to why, but check out my blog (the second link in my sig) to sample my take on the setting.
/M
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A wonderful game! Very grim and gritty, though. It doesn't do High Fantasy as well as D&D, C&C, or True20 IMO. But damn, it does low to mid fantasy stunningly. Combats are fast and brutal, character generation is a breeze, and the rules are easy to keep track of without hitting the books (as long as you have a referee's screen for tracking crits in combat).
Coincidentally enough I was just recommending Warhammer on a different board earlier today.
Kickass first post -- and welcome to the boards!
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My first response to the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon, was to change my planned campaign to WFRP 2nd ed. It's a very fun game. It does grim and gritty very well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pawsplay
Nitpics: I like Fmir, and I will miss the Jabberwock.
The Jabberwock exists in 2nd ed. It can be found in the Tome of Corruption.
I do like the character creation, but even though I'm tiring of d20 I'm growing increasingly wary of picking up new systems. I may but it and see if I can adapt it to a system I'm already familiar with, GURPS or BRP might fit the feel well.
What kind of player base is there in North America? (I'm in Canada, FWIW).
I've heard it said that Warhammer FRP is popular in Britain, but almost totally under the radar here in North America (despite the wild popularity of the wargame).
I was playing Warhammer 1st and 2nd edition. Imho 2ed is much better when we talk about rules, and have the same interesting game world when we talk about setting.
I'm not kind of player who feel good in dark mood for more than 1-2 game sessions, so D&D .
Personally, I think that's a lousy reason to check the game out, and is unlikely to present it in it's best light. Warhammer is one of those kinds of games where you think you're playing one thing, but in reality you're playing something else entirely. In this case, because of superficial similarities, you may think you're playing D&D but just with different rules, but after a handful of combats are under your belt, you'll find out that you're actually playing Call of Cthulhu, and your characters will likely be dead, maimed, insane, diseased or otherwise hosed because you had a D&D paradigm in mind while you played it.
Check out Warhammer on it's own merits; make sure that you're ready for the massive paradigm shift that it entails, and then go for it, and I think you'll find it a great game. If--however--you just think "it's D&D, but not really, so I can stick it to WotC" then you'll probably be disappointed with it.
EDIT: Ah, I see the D&D/Cthulhu comparison has already been brought up. Cheers, guys! You're on top of things today, clearly!
The comparisons I would make with WFRP would be Dying Earth, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Swordbearer.
A moonlighting ratcatcher and a junior temple initiate trying to plant a bomb in a cult hideout is about par for the course. Even if you manage to become like a knight or something, you'll probably end up challenging another knight to a rigged bout so you can sell his armor and buy a boat. Most wizards are basically full of it, since they're fond of learning spells they can't cast safely, and probably spend a lot of time avoiding casting spells unless they absolutely have to. Or they get sucked into the abyss by a chaos demon, and that's the end of that.
It kind of reminds me of the show Supernatural... you know, the two brothers going around putting down ghosts and slaying demons. But since they don't have financial or legal backing for their mighty quest, they subsist on credit card fraud, pool sharking, and theft, and regualrly impersonate everyone from the CDC to Homeland Security to state police.
If--however--you just think "it's D&D, but not really, so I can stick it to WotC" then you'll probably be disappointed with it.
Uh . . . I never said anything like that. Are you perhaps projecting a bit here?
All I said was that the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon has me checking out other options for fantasy RPGs. The whole purpose of this thread is to help me avoid the disappointment you refer to.
The main thing that DnD has and WFRP doesn’t is the high level of character customisability. We played WRFP for about a year and it’s a great game that does exactly what it tries to do, but we’ve been playing a bit of DnD again recently and some of the players have been getting into the character options stuff a lot more.
If you like the mechanics and the complexity you might find that you miss that in WFRP.
The other issue is the relative simplicity of combat. WFRP characters are pretty average people, not heroic giants, and they tend to miss a lot in combat. That means you can go several rounds of going ‘woosh’ over the enemy’s head which is a bit dull. Some more options would be cool. This does help make combat less of a focus in the game though if you’re going for that.
Finally the supplements are really expensive, probably due to it being published by a UK company who have to report profits in pounds.
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What kind of player base is there in North America? (I'm in Canada, FWIW).
I've heard it said that Warhammer FRP is popular in Britain, but almost totally under the radar here in North America (despite the wild popularity of the wargame)
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That's an interesting question and one that's hard to give a definitive answer to, given the absence of truly reliable long term sales statistics for games.
My take on it is coloured by my experiences, back when I was regularly going to the conventions here in Ireland (from maybe about 1989-1996). Then it was a massively popular game here, behind only DnD at least until Vampire came along. The gaming scene here was vibrant but very much influenced by our larger neighbour next door. I got the general impression that WFRP 1e was one of the most popular games in Britain too, and in parts of Continental Europe, but that it was lower profile in North America. It is often said that it was the most popular RPG published outside the USA, but although it did have a following in North America that popularity was concentrated outside of it.
After it's first wave of popularity the playing base everywhere probably suffered much the same long, slow decline. It had two long periods without a publisher, punctuated by the Hogshead years (where despite the good work done by the publishers I think the decline was more slowed than reversed). In Britain (and Ireland) the game had such a large and entrenched fan base that even after all those difficulties it maintained a solid core of interest, particularly with the miniatures games ensuring that the setting became more widely known. I would guess that the smaller starting base in North America means that the decline impacted more.
As far as WFRP 2e goes, I suspect that it is already one of the top three games in Britain or Ireland again. In North America it has a much smaller pre-existing base but it has apparently established itself as the third best selling game at the moment, behind DnD and World of Darkness which would mean it's growing rapidly. It will most likely continue to grow for a number of reasons including: (a) it's an excellent game, (b) it has a publisher with the muscle to get it into game stores and, importantly, places like Barnes and Noble outlets, (c) it is being very heavily supported with supplements, (d) it has the wildly popular wargame to act as a recruiting sergeant, as well as a novel line.
All of the above, I emphasise is just guesswork extrapolating from personal experience.
I think the reason that Woof-Rup (as we old-timers like to call it) has a large UK fan base is (a) it's British and (b) the primary UK role-playing magaizine of the time, White Dwarf was also published by Games Workshop. Over the course of the late 1980s it went from a generic RPG mag to a glorified advert/catalogue for GW, ultimately turning into the miniatures gaming mag that it is today when GW chucked all their RPG stuff in favour of the more lucrative wargames.
I used to play a lot of 1st Ed., which is nice although the Initiative system and racial bonuses meant that an elf character could sort out any sort of combat problem before anoyone else.
The Enemy Within campaign is, by far, one of the best RP campaigns ever written. TEW is fairly straightforward but has some great RP and world-building moments, such as a French (sorry Bretonnian) card sharp and hungover coachmen, getting muddy, getting drunk, getting rained on and so forth. Shadows over Bogenhafen is a nice Evil Cult in Small Town adventure with one of the best sewer-crawls I've seen. Death on the Reik is a great package, weeks of adventure, sub-plots, ancient mystery and a castle full of mad people named after philosophers. After that it goes downhill. Power Behind the Throne can be a fun RP-based adventure but there is a feeling that all the careful investigation and alliances that the PCs need to set up in the beginning aren't really all that important by the end. I really, really hated Something Rotten in Kislev. For one thing it is completely un-connected to the rest of the campaign and should have been marketed as a seperate product. Secondly, it completely and deliberately hoses the PCs with a '2 kewl 4 jou' NPC. The fact that is was written by the guy who created Paranoia should tell you something. Finally, Empire in Flames was a bit of a let-down as it was far more linear and straightforward than its predecessors. I believe in the Hogshead years they were re-writing it as Empire in Chaos, but that it didn't quite materialise.
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While I like the new edition, I think I liked the old edition better. I miss MPs. I miss the 4 Att Assassins. Still, 2Es rules are a bir more balanced.
While I like the new edition, I think I liked the old edition better. I miss MPs. I miss the 4 Att Assassins. Still, 2Es rules are a bir more balanced.
Sometimes I miss those rules too. The magic careers just seem different now.
Sometimes I miss those rules too. The magic careers just seem different now.
I changed the attacks to actions, with all charcters starting with 2 a round. I have also kept magic points. I do love Warhammer. It is just a lot easier to DM, though it is harder to not kill of PCs, fate points help that.
So we never got to finish the campaign.
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