Seriously considering Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2nd edition)

[iron-spyder]

Warhammer is an excellent rpg, while I really enjoyed the first edition, the second edition runs well, has a lot of support material, both official and unofficial and is a blast to run. As many have said, just understand that you are not playing DnD, you are playing a mixture of fantasy and horror. Foul cultists of abominable gods, creepy undead and plain everyday greed and cruelty face the players and present as many challenges as do the crazed orcs, snooty knights and weird elves that you find in other games. Pure fun.

[Metus]

I guess I'm obligated to post, simply to be the lone voice of criticism.

I bought Warhammer due to the excellent reviews and comments it had received; it was my first experience with Warhammer.

After buying the book along with a few supplements and the official adventure, I sold it all at half price as soon as I could. I love RPGs, and I love finding new ones, and out of all the RPGs I've ever checked out in my entire life, this was one of the two systems that I just absolutely could not stand whatsoever. I feel nauseous just thinking about it.

In the reviews, people would put a cinematic spin on playing a ratcatcher and fisherman or whatever. After getting the books and reading the rules, I found it to be about as appealing as actually playing a ratcatcher or fisherman. The class system felt very haphazard and was a bit too wacky for my tastes. I had a hard time thinking about why classes like a knight, a peasant, a fisherman, an assassin, etc, etc, would all group together in a party. It'd be possible, but it would break the verisimilitude for me. It felt - to me - like the extremes of D&D that I don't like, where you have a mind flayer paladin and a warforged samurai and whatever whatever.

I also hated the stat system, the rolling system, the way magic was handled.... pretty much everything about it. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And again, I stress that this is simply my opinion, but DO know that WFRP isn't just unequivocally awesome.

[Ian O'Rourke]

Originally Posted by Metus

I had a hard time thinking about why classes like a knight, a peasant, a fisherman, an assassin, etc, etc, would all group together in a party. It'd be possible, but it would break the verisimilitude for me. It felt - to me - like the extremes of D&D that I don't like, where you have a mind flayer paladin and a warforged samurai and whatever whatever.

That can be more of it's more difficult aspects, but then you often have to think of it another way. WHFRP doesn't have classes, it has careers, in that they are jobs the player has done, or is doing. As a result, it's often best to view them this way, and instead of these things being jobs that the characters leave behind to become these 'odd adventurers' it's their jobs that get them into adventures.

So, in the first instance, a Knight, a Peasant, a Fisherman and an Assassin wouldn't be adventuring together overly as I believe two of those are Advanced Careers - so it's more likely that the fisherman and the peasant would find themselves involved in some adventure with a poor Squire or an Outlaw (going from memory on Careers). Now it's not so bad....it's conceivable some mysterious happenings might pull them in. Again, it's like Call of Cthuhlhu, the job is something you're actually doing.

Now, sometime later, maybe two of the characters are an Assassin and a Knight, but you can bet by this point the Peasant is maybe an Outlaw Leader like Robin Hood and the Fisherman will have moved on as well. At this time, and due to past connections, one or a few of their careers might pull them into adventure again.

So, yeah WHRFP isn't perfect, but the career system often works to spur on interesting adventures, and it is the careers that pull people into adventure and take things in interesting directions - it is the Call of Cthuhlhu analogy againt though, just like in that game, your job is still part of the game and the adventures happen around it.

I say this because this aspect of it through me for a while.

[Frostmarrow]

I started out as a charcoal burner and had my mind set on becoming a spell caster. As soon as I could change careers I went on to become a hedge wizard. My spells were somewhat limited. I remember fondly the one that made me immune to rain. We played through the flagship campaign starting with the first part in the rule book. By the end of the campaign I had advanced to witch and could actually cast useful spells but alas the campaign was ended by that time. (Basically at the equvalent of 5th level I could cast ray of frost with a steep chance of being afflicted with insanity.) The powerlevel is cool in it's own way but you really feel how the world is stacked up against you. Everybody attacks spell-casters on sight and there is no magic to protect you.

WFRP is the least deadly game I've ever tried, though. As long as you keep your Fate Points in the positives you are immune to death. A sad development to a game that boasts about being grim and gritty. It is nevertheless very entertaining.

We found the insanity rules to be unwieldy and decided to chuck it. It was kind of cute to be mentally ill but in the race to save the world there simply was no time nor opportunity for seizures and sudden bouts of madness.

Now we are back with D&D a little wiser, a bit more fond of D&D, and with the firm belief that we will someday return to The Old World. Not only because it rocks but also because it is a great vacation away from D&D.

But home is where the heart is.

[iron-spyder]

The careers are what you were doing before you were thrown together into an adventure, which is realistic considering the horror aspects of the game.

Some of the starting careers might seem a bit lame, but they do two things right off:

1) Challenge players to work with what they have, using what skills they have for survival, pooling their resources as best they can.
2) Reflect a more realistic world than standard classes and add flavour to the setting.

That said, and even though a peasant can advance to witch hunter in time, I generally let players choose their starting career from a few that will fit the theme/mood of the game I am running.

[Frostmarrow]

Originally Posted by iron-spyder

The careers are what you were doing before you were thrown together into an adventure, which is realistic considering the horror aspects of the game.

Some of the starting careers might seem a bit lame, but they do two things right off:

1) Challenge players to work with what they have, using what skills they have for survival, pooling their resources as best they can.
2) Reflect a more realistic world than standard classes and add flavour to the setting.

That said, and even though a peasant can advance to witch hunter in time, I generally let players choose their starting career from a few that will fit the theme/mood of the game I am running.

Considering that you can pay 200XP (almost not optional) as soon as you have them to get into something else I say the random roll works just fine.

[Gundark]

A really good game. I love the fast combats. Things are fast and smooth. I definetly recommend it.

That said I really hate the ton of careers that they have. It seemed to be a waste of paper/space to have so many. Espcially when all those careers basically boil down to just a few basic types.

Also the system was designed for WHF world. It would have been nice for it to be a generic so you could play in homebrews.

Other than that...solid game

[iron-spyder]

Originally Posted by Frostmarrow

Considering that you can pay 200XP (almost not optional) as soon as you have them to get into something else I say the random roll works just fine.

Quite true, but I don't mind players starting out with a career that they want to play. The basic careers are fairly easy for a GM to manage, it is a diversity of advanced careers that is more challenging with all of the baggage that a character carries along their career path. There is nothing wrong with random career generation either, but since the Warhammer world is brutal enough as it is I don't mind the players starting out on a positive note. The rain will fall in their lives soon enough.

[Retreater]

Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.

Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?

Are there rules (in the core book or in supplements) about the warmachines - like the Screaming Bell of the Skaven, Snotling Pump Wagons, Earthshaker Cannons, etc.?

How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?

Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?

Thanks
Retreater

[the Jester]

Originally Posted by Retreater

Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.

Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?

...How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?

Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?

No need for WHBG minis- we play just fine without them (though we do like to use minis, we mostly use dnd minis).

Our group runs 2-8 players plus the gm, and the gm and I each have the core book; it seems fine, except for if more than two players need to make pcs at once. Even then, it isn't too bad.

The duration of a combat really depends on how big the combat is, and on how good the combatants are at fighting, but it generally seems faster than 3e dnd.

[Ourph]

Originally Posted by Retreater

Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.

Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?

Using miniatures makes keeping track of combat a lot easier (just like in D&D) but it's definitely possible to do without. I can't recall any encouragement toward buying miniatures in the book (Games Workshop or otherwise).

Are there rules (in the core book or in supplements) about the warmachines - like the Screaming Bell of the Skaven, Snotling Pump Wagons, Earthshaker Cannons, etc.?

War machines aren't covered in the core book. There are a few passages about them in the Tome of Corruption and Children of the Horned Rat (Skaven sourcebook). The rules assume skirmish-level combat, not mass warfare (hence, few rules for warmachines). The Skaven book does go into some detail on smaller scale "magi-tech" in the Skaven book (Warp Pistols, etc.).

How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?

For actual play, players don't really need access to a book. Spellcasters can download spellcards from the BI website (fan created and hosted there) that give abbreviated spell descriptions and once the players are familiar with combat actions there's really no need to reference the rules. My group of 5 (plus me, the GM, making 6) share two books for character creation. I've made a chargen summary sheet that reproduces a few of the tables, which helps. Sharing books makes the process take a bit longer, but it is definitely workable.

Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?

In my experience, most combats take between 10-15 minutes when the number of "monsters" is about equal to the number of PCs (i.e. 4-5 combatants on each side). I use a modified critical table for mooks that breaks critical hits down into "WP test vs. Fear", "Automatic Fear" and "Instant Death" that helps to speed combat along (frightened combatants run away from battle). The nice thing about WFRP is that this number stays pretty constant throughout the progression of the PCs. IMC, the PCs are into their 3rd and 4th careers at this point (equivalent of 12th-15th level in D&D) and the fights are taking about the same amount of time as they took when the PCs were first created. The only time a combat really stretches beyond 15 minutes is when the PCs are fighting lots and lots of weaker creatures (15-20 goblins for example). Even with the really large and complex combats most are finished in under half an hour.

[iron-spyder]

Your questions were answered quite well. I would agree that miniatures are not necessary. I sometimes use a few, but usually Rackham pieces anyway because I like them better.

I would also add that a character pack/folio for each player is more appropriate than several core books. What is handy to start/covers the basics, eases play:

Core book, Sigmar's Heirs, GM Screen and Character Folios. The Bestiary and Realms of Sorcery would be next, especially considering the amount of spells available for free on the official Black Library forum (look in the GM section at the top for the Sticky threads, they are all of help). Also grab a .pdf called Denizens of the Empire (free) for a huge load of NPCs.

[Frostmarrow]

Originally Posted by iron-spyder

Your questions were answered quite well. I would agree that miniatures are not necessary. I sometimes use a few, but usually Rackham pieces anyway because I like them better.

We found that the need for minis is smaller than for D&D actually. I agree with your sentiment about Rackham's models.

[shilsen]

This is a really interesting thread. I'm flying back to India for the summer and am now really considering picking up the Warhammer FRP book for some in-flight reading (a little known fact - long international flights lead to significant rules-mastery).

[iron-spyder]

One of the main differences you will find in Warhammer is the emphasis on adventure/intrigue over the traditional DnD dungeoncrawl. I am not saying that DnD is all about dungeoncrawling, but does happen often enough.

In Warhammer, on the other hand, you can have exciting game sessions without any physical combat and without ever going into a dungeon (although slogging through sewers happens).

You are also often running from the law in Warhammer, not playing the spotless adventurer admired by the crowd, the more you find out about the secrets of the Warhammer world the more deranged and horrified the characters often become. Often the crowds you encounter have torches and pitchforks, sometimes urged on by a witch hunter.

[shilsen]

Originally Posted by iron-spyder

One of the main differences you will find in Warhammer is the emphasis on adventure/intrigue over the traditional DnD dungeoncrawl. I am not saying that DnD is all about dungeoncrawling, but does happen often enough.

In Warhammer, on the other hand, you can have exciting game sessions without any physical combat and without ever going into a dungeon (although slogging through sewers happens).

This fits my preferences perfectly. I've been running an Eberron game (see sig) for 2+ years, and ran another for 2 years before that, both of which essentially eliminated dungeon-crawling as a part of the game. We usually do have combat every session, but that's mainly because my players like it.

You are also often running from the law in Warhammer, not playing the spotless adventurer admired by the crowd, the more you find out about the secrets of the Warhammer world the more deranged and horrified the characters often become. Often the crowds you encounter have torches and pitchforks, sometimes urged on by a witch hunter.

Speaking of DMing preferences, all I have to say to that is:

[iron-spyder]

Shilsen:
Hopefully you will pick up the rules and get into the game. It runs smoothly, has a few d20-isms and is easy to pick up initially by players of 3.x games.

The downside for combat heavy players is the fact that a goblin that gets in a lucky shot can drag down a knight. This is excellent for GMs and shocks players into reality fairly quickly. There are Fate Points to save them from death, but sometimes death is preferable to some of the things a devious GM can throw at players.

Check out their forums for handy GM tools (in the GM section)

The main site for WFRP has a plethora of goodies including many excellent, ready to play adventures.

[shilsen]

Originally Posted by iron-spyder

Shilsen:
Hopefully you will pick up the rules and get into the game. It runs smoothly, has a few d20-isms and is easy to pick up initially by players of 3.x games.

The downside for combat heavy players is the fact that a goblin that gets in a lucky shot can drag down a knight. This is excellent for GMs and shocks players into reality fairly quickly. There are Fate Points to save them from death, but sometimes death is preferable to some of the things a devious GM can throw at players.

Check out their forums for handy GM tools (in the GM section)

The main site for WFRP has a plethora of goodies including many excellent, ready to play adventures.

Thanks a lot for all the info.

The order has been placed

[Mallus]

Oddly enough, Shil, I was just checking Amazon for the new Star Wars Saga Edition's release date... and ended up reading all I could about WFRP ed2. I think I pretty much sold.

Now my big question is: can I use it to run CITY? Because I'll try... oh I'll try.

[iron-spyder]

You are most welcome, Shilsen. The downside to the new Warhammer rpg is that the adventure series, Paths of the Damned, comprised of Ashes of Middenheim, Spires of Altdorf and Forges of Nuln do leave a lot to be desired and are full of inconsistencies. However, they also consider good background information and new careers, making these definite 'maybies'.

Plundered Vaults is a decent collection of short adventures that are easy to work with and they do have a semi-dungeoncrawl called Karak Azgal. However, to begin with, I still suggest the adventures made by the fans on the official site and the Denizens of the Empire .pdf.

You will hear quite a bit about the mega-adventure, The Enemy Within (TEW), which is a campaign from the first edition of the game and as others have said, quite possibly the best rpg adventure series to date made for any rpg. There are updates and conversions aplenty and it is a constant topic of discussion on the official forums and crops up a bit on the best unofficial forum, Strike-to-Stun.