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I dunno man, all we have for evidence as to whether your players are having a good time is... you telling us that one of the players isn't having a good time with one particular plot element.
That in itself should be a pointer. ONE person, the person who was cursed didn't like the curse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweeneyTodd
I'm sure you're a kick-ass DM, but in this particular case, several people disagree with your ruling. Them's the breaks when you go to the internet to seek justification; you might not get it. It's nothing personal.
My intent wasn't justification, I was looking for general conversation. I know theres no hard feelings here. Just so long as everybody will equily assume I'll "defend" my desisions and actions. Especially when I'm compared to "torturing monkeys" as I was above.
Maybe some more information is due. Seeing as how I have downtime at work I guess I can fill it in here.
The Cursed item is a dagger that craves killing. on the first strike the target gets marked. On the second strike Hit or miss it deals 5[W] damage to the target, on a miss it deals 2[w] damage to the holder.
EDITED
On the 3rd attack of the round it uses the holders magic item daily slot, On a hit it reduces target to 0 and -2 to death save On a miss it brings both the character and the target to 0 hp.
The dagger itself is a link to my planned BBEG in the end of the adventure. Generally my players chose to go on the "Destroy the dagger" quest I set up for them because they either a: understand that it is my plotline, or b) know that the BBEG will still do stuff in the background regardless of what adventures they do or do not go on. Or c. they play along because I put alot of work in my adventures, and them going out of their way to NOT do what I planned for generally puts me in the spotlight. I'm not saying I can't "wing it" I can, its just I do better when I'm prepared just as I assume every DM is.
Now, there is MORE for them to do in the story than strictly sit on the dagger adventure. I have 3 adventure hooks kicking around, and am fully ready with a couple random encounters if they realy don't want to follow my story. Its just that the dagger is linked directly to the main story line, and following it will advance the plot.
Like I said before. This might not be a good move on my part. But I'm sticking to it. The reason it's a cursed item and not an artifact is so that they WANT to get rid of it, not have it up and vanish on its own.
If Lord of the Rings didn't have The One Ring, what kind of series would it be? Sure, the hobbits, the Wizard, and some trees could have overthrown all the baddies on their own, but the Ring gave them the reason to leave their comfy houses. I find this dagger as the exact same thing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Last edited by Lord Xtheth; 30th June 2008 at 06:39 PM..
The Cursed item is a dagger that craves killing. on the first strike the target gets marked. On the second strike Hit or miss it deals 5[W] damage to the target, on a miss it deals 2[w] damage to the holder.
On the 3rd attack of the round it uses the holders magic item daily slot, and brings both the character and the target to 0 hp.
Perhaps you didn't word that exactly as the item actually works, but if I could only make 3 attacks per combat before automatically falling to 0 HP I would be very pissed with my DM (unless he allowed me the chance to know what I was getting into before using the item, or allowed me some way to quickly get rid of it).
Did you actually just say there, you have an item that makes a character useless in 3 rounds of combat? I can't imagine how a player wouldn't enjoy that.
__________________ I assure you, officer -- it's not an anarchist symbol -- it's a capital @!
"On the 3rd attack of the round it uses the holders magic item daily slot, and brings both the character and the target to 0 hp."
Yeah, I'd be pretty peeved if this was the only weapon I could ever use because the curse forces me to use it, which is what is strongly implied in your earlier posts.
First of all, I am not at your table and have really no idea how things work out for you. I still feel I want to say a few things, as you touch on a few things that are kind of close to my heart. Like storytelling techinques in RPGs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xtheth
That in itself should be a pointer. ONE person, the person who was cursed didn't like the curse.
Well if one person doesn't like it, it can be enough to break the game. Every person around the table needs to be having enough fun for the game to work. But I am sure you know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xtheth
The Cursed item is a dagger that craves killing. on the first strike the target gets marked. On the second strike Hit or miss it deals 5[W] damage to the target, on a miss it deals 2[w] damage to the holder.
On the 3rd attack of the round it uses the holders magic item daily slot, and brings both the character and the target to 0 hp.
Sounds like a very swingy item to me, and something that kind of risks taking away the fun in combats. On the other hand, you know your encounters and your players a lot better than me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xtheth
If Lord of the Rings didn't have The One Ring, what kind of series would it be? Sure, the hobbits, the Wizard, and some trees could have overthrown all the baddies on their own, but the Ring gave them the reason to leave their comfy houses. I find this dagger as the exact same thing.
No. This is not me being a Tolkien fan, I find his work really overrated, but still no. The one ring is not destroyed because it is inconvenient to the bearer. It is done to save the world.
Your cursed item is potentially extremely powerful in battle (if I read it correctly), a power gaming party's dream. If it does not have other downsides than what you told us here, there will not be enough reasons for the party to get rid of it - except for the metagaming reason of making you happy by doing what they are supposed to do. And that is not what we want when we write stories, is it?
Of course you know your players, I don't. Also I might have missed some things in my reading. But I would still make serious changes to that dagger if I was to let it be considereed for use in my game. One example would be for every hit to risk taking a healing surge from the bearer, but on the other hand let those special hits do double damage. And not to have that instant kill-power at all, it is just an invitation to power tricks at the same time as it takes away fun from the bearer.
Of course just my opinion. You do what you and your players like.
Did you actually just say there, you have an item that makes a character useless in 3 rounds of combat? I can't imagine how a player wouldn't enjoy that.
It does seem awfully... painful... to me to be saddled with a thing like this. The way 4e combats seem to be shaping up to be longer affairs than 3e combats, I would think a curse clobbering him this fast would just not fit the game. He's going to spend more time out of combat than in it if he's limited to only 2 rounds of active fighting before he ends up lying on the floor. In a climactic BBEG fight, maybe it would work in a sufficiently dramatic way, but other than that? I have my doubts.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
I missed an entire line in my orriginal description of my cursed item.
I've gone back and edited the orriginal post...
Sorry about that, it was a mistake in description in this forum, NOT the design of the item.
It's supposed to be a MISS that reduces both character and target to 0. not just a swing.
ALSO the "next ability" in each line (1st, 2nd, 3rd attack) only works on the target of the previous attack. (Just to clarify) If you attack a new target, the cycle starts over
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Last edited by Lord Xtheth; 30th June 2008 at 06:45 PM..
I missed an entire line in my orriginal description of my cursed item.
I've gone back and edited the orriginal post...
Sorry about that, it was a mistake in description in this forum, NOT the design of the item.
It's supposed to be a MISS that reduces both character and target to 0. not just a swing.
ALSO the "next ability" in each line (1st, 2nd, 3rd attack) only works on the target of the previous attack. (Just to clarify) If you attack a new target, the cycle starts over
If it were me, I'd probably change the "miss" to 1[w] damage instead of 2[w], because that's a heck of a lot of damage at one time to the wielder, and I'd get rid of or mitigate the "three strikes you're out" clause, because to me it's too much to knock a character completely out of commission automatically with a cursed item. Not even any of Gary's non-artifact cursed items did that (well, except for the save or dies); most of his cursed items were like the backbiter spear, or the missile attracting shield, or the berserking sword, which still worked, but had a curse attached that made life difficult without totally hosing the wielder.
Other than that, I have no problem with cursed items; I've used them in various campaigns, though sparingly to keep the players from getting tired with them.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
That would work better, but still... Does the counting of hits against target X continue when you target him anew? I mean, after hitting someone else in the meantime? In that case, you'd still be running risky once the number of targets goes down.
On another note, considering some of the rolls I see around the tables I play, dropping to 0 HP on a miss is guaranted to happen, like, every 5 minutes or so.
__________________ I assure you, officer -- it's not an anarchist symbol -- it's a capital @!
That would work better, but still... Does the counting of hits against target X continue when you target him anew? I mean, after hitting someone else in the meantime? In that case, you'd still be running risky once the number of targets goes down.
On another note, considering some of the rolls I see around the tables I play, dropping to 0 HP on a miss is guaranted to happen, like, every 5 minutes or so.
I usually get surprised if my currant group of players ever roll below 10. It happens so little I almost considered letting them always hit at one point... but no seriously, my players have been damn lucky. And like I said, its there to BE destroyed.
ALSO, Yes, every new target the dagger resets, I needs to mark a target before it moves to step 2, then it needs to bleed the target thats marked to move to step 3.
sorry for being unclear. I'm typing this during downtime at work, so sometimes I'm rushed.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Let me take a moment to re-state the orriginal intent of this thread. It was not meant to discuss my item. I'm sticking with my item and plot line that comes with it. If you want to make cursed items with no plot line to get rid of them, go for it. If you don't like my cursed item, or its plotline, well you don't realy have to worry about it. As far as the adventure goes, the Cursed item is the ONLY thing that ONE player didn't like. I'm pretty sure he'd be mad no matter what classic or new cursed item he got. No matter the circumstances he got it under.
This thread was to discuss what things other people have done that may or may not have got bad reactions, good reactions, or whatever else.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Let me take a moment to re-state the orriginal intent of this thread. It was not meant to discuss my item. I'm sticking with my item and plot line that comes with it. If you want to make cursed items with no plot line to get rid of them, go for it. If you don't like my cursed item, or its plotline, well you don't realy have to worry about it. As far as the adventure goes, the Cursed item is the ONLY thing that ONE player didn't like. I'm pretty sure he'd be mad no matter what classic or new cursed item he got. No matter the circumstances he got it under.
This thread was to discuss what things other people have done that may or may not have got bad reactions, good reactions, or whatever else.
If someone else brought in an example of what you want to discuss, then theirs would be a part of the discussion. Unfortunately, it seems the people speaking so far don't agree that having an unfun aspect of the game such as your item should be included in the game. Yours is the only negative to discuss. But if you only want people to talk about their own examples of unfun things they have tossed into the game on purpose, then those of us who disagree with doing such things should bow out in order to avoid discussing the only unfun thing that has been offered so far. Do you see what I mean? Your example just happens to be the only one we have to discuss.
I usually get surprised if my currant group of players ever roll below 10. It happens so little I almost considered letting them always hit at one point... but no seriously, my players have been damn lucky. And like I said, its there to BE destroyed.
ALSO, Yes, every new target the dagger resets, I needs to mark a target before it moves to step 2, then it needs to bleed the target thats marked to move to step 3.
sorry for being unclear. I'm typing this during downtime at work, so sometimes I'm rushed.
Full out description like that does make it look more reasonable (albeit maybe slightly towards the overpowering side of the spectrum). In which case it might, indeed, be a problem that the player didn't have that kind of character development/campaign in mind - which should be fixable if the both of you take the time to talk it out.
Seriously, from personal experience, I've quit campaigns where I didn't like the way they were being run, or I should say, didn't like where they were going. Always took the time to lay out my problems to the DM first, and asked flat-out what his intentions were with the storyline. Maybe this is just what that player is attempting.
I'd consider cutting short the cursed item quest somehow if the players don't seem to enjoy it as much as you hoped. Or downgrade it a bit, so the players feel less forced into it. You can still have it hanging, but downgrade it.
__________________ I assure you, officer -- it's not an anarchist symbol -- it's a capital @!
Once upon a time, a character came upon a cursed item. Shortly after discovering its nature, the player took the item to the local blacksmith and had it destroyed. The end.
Or:
Once upon a time, a character came upon a cursed item. Shortly after discovering its nature, the player took the item to the local blacksmith and discovered that it could not be destroyed by simple means. So he found the wizard that made it and commissioned him to curse his wagon, and engaged in a campaign of fire and destruction from behind its invincible wooden and cloth frame. Said adventurer ignored other, lesser adventuring opportunities that came along in the meantime, for she knew that mastering the power of the invincible cursed items would be a far greater source of power than mere dungeon-delving. The end.
I'd consider cutting short the cursed item quest somehow if the players don't seem to enjoy it as much as you hoped. Or downgrade it a bit, so the players feel less forced into it. You can still have it hanging, but downgrade it.
Oh, of cource, IF my player complains that its completely unfun to play his character alltogether (Not just unfun to have a cursed item) I can and will fast forward the adventure so he can be rid of it sooner.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
If someone else brought in an example of what you want to discuss, then theirs would be a part of the discussion. Unfortunately, it seems the people speaking so far don't agree that having an unfun aspect of the game such as your item should be included in the game. Yours is the only negative to discuss. But if you only want people to talk about their own examples of unfun things they have tossed into the game on purpose, then those of us who disagree with doing such things should bow out in order to avoid discussing the only unfun thing that has been offered so far. Do you see what I mean? Your example just happens to be the only one we have to discuss.
So what you're telling me is that you're so perfect, and your group is so well-oiled that no one ever brought up concern about a spacific aspect of a game that they didn't quite enjoy as much as expected? I find this incredibly hard to believe.
Mine was an EXAMPLE. I could put up more, but I'm buisy defending my first example... also am still back and forth when it comes to free time at work.
In a couple hours I'll be more free to give more.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
I was thinking of putting a cursed item into an adventure I'm writing (and hoping to play in September). This thread has got me thinking..... but I'm probably still gonna do it anyway.
It won't be major and I'd expect the players to run with it without whinging. I want to be able to add in a little old-school flavour every now-and-again. And this adventure I'm wrting has some (a little) classic dungeon crawl flavour elements.
So, evil traps: check. Something the PCs cant beat: check. Cursed item: checkl.
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I was thinking of putting a cursed item into an adventure I'm writing (and hoping to play in September). This thread has got me thinking..... but I'm probably still gonna do it anyway.
It won't be major and I'd expect the players to run with it without whinging. I want to be able to add in a little old-school flavour every now-and-again. And this adventure I'm wrting has some (a little) classic dungeon crawl flavour elements.
So, evil traps: check. Something the PCs cant beat: check. Cursed item: checkl.
Awesome, I hope you come back and tell us about the experience. Do you plan on telling the player beforehand like suggested by others earlier in the thread? Or do you plan on surprising them with it?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Do you plan on telling the player beforehand like suggested by others earlier in the thread?
Wasn't that me?
In this case, 'cause it'll probably only be a minor effect and they'll be able to get rid of it at the end of the adventure so no I ain't gonna tell 'em - though it's only fair of me to drop a couple of hints.
To be honest I gonna be a right b******** in this adventure. A number of the encounters are going to be harder than they should be (over xp budget), the dungeon is a place of really bad evil so the whole place is gonna infect the PCs with taint (thinking of using the disease mechanic for that), they'll be diasease and traps. I'm gonna play the monsters smart and the kobolds will use traps, mounts and poison.
All at first level too! It'll either be awesome or a complete disaster.
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Hoping to start a RPG club in Barnstaple, Devon, UK
Last edited by pogminky; 30th June 2008 at 10:59 PM..
Reason: makin' it tidy
Heh, I'd play that!
It sounds Hella-fun. It kinda reminds me of The old "Dragon Mountain" adventure... except with taint.
I never liked taint myself. It penalizes people for just playing and its effects in the Book of Vile Darkness, and to a lesser extent Heroes of Horror didn't realy make sense to me. But thats just me.
I played a game under another DM who used taint. By the end of 2 adventures it was down to myself and another mutual friend of ours sticking it out based soley on our friendship with the DM. That one died, so you may want to be careful, or at least not make the effects as hard core as BoVD.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
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