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Being the invincible DM that I am, I didn't let it bother me. The cursed item is the plot of my currand adventure path... so if he doesn't like it, all he has to do is follow the adventure.
I have to say that if it were me I'd not be whining, I'd be going out of my way to get killed just to spite you. There are better ways to push your plot forward.
__________________ Nothing says "fantasy" like misplaced punctuation.
My favourite game is better than your favourite game.
Taint - noted. It'll be kept minor - just enough for the PCs to know that this place is a really full-on don't-let-your-grandmother-go-down-there haunted abode of damned evil vile nastiness that ever crawled out of a pscycho's nightmares.
Of course the hordes of zombies sliding on a wave of beetles out of the mouths of giant grotesque heads onto the PCs in a room buzzing with flies and with blood pouring down the walls might also convey the same information.
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Looking at the numbers, even a reasonably optimized character only hits vs AC on an equal level foe about 50% of the time. Against an elite, solo, or higher level monster it can get much lower than that. I'd probably be pretty annoyed by the item too, unless I was an Elven deadly trickster or something. Given how many rounds fights go in 4e, the odds of this item taking the player out of the fight late in any battle are pretty good.
Cursed items aren't neccessarily a bad thing to introduce into the game. I'd just do it very carefully. Alot of thought needs to be put into the mechanical implications of the item, as well as the personality of the player you are giving it to.
I have to say that if it were me I'd not be whining, I'd be going out of my way to get killed just to spite you. There are better ways to push your plot forward.
Yeah, once again someone confuses A SINGLE plot point as the entire adventure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Looking at the numbers, even a reasonably optimized character only hits vs AC on an equal level foe about 50% of the time. Against an elite, solo, or higher level monster it can get much lower than that. I'd probably be pretty annoyed by the item too, unless I was an Elven deadly trickster or something. Given how many rounds fights go in 4e, the odds of this item taking the player out of the fight late in any battle are pretty good.
Cursed items aren't neccessarily a bad thing to introduce into the game. I'd just do it very carefully. Alot of thought needs to be put into the mechanical implications of the item, as well as the personality of the player you are giving it to.
I call this the 50/50/90 rule.
If your party only has a 50% chance of doing things, my party will have a 90% chance of doing the same things.
Case in point, My players succeded in 9 out of 11 skill challenges, Didn't even fall once during KoTS, and Use their dailys on the baddie that they probably needed to in order to keep things seeming "real".
I'm not trying to say that my players are Better in any way, they just know me pretty well, I know them very well, and they all have horseshoes up their butts!
Maybe I should buy them all new dice... and force them to use them. Their dice are enchanted dice of always rolling good +5 I swear.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Yeah, once again someone confuses A SINGLE plot point as the entire adventure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xtheth
The cursed item is the plot of my currand adventure path... so if he doesn't like it, all he has to do is follow the adventure.
Uhm, you said in your first post the cursed item "is the plot" of your adventure. Not one of many. Is it safe to say without this "plot point" your adventure path falls apart?
This sounds like a bit of a railroad to me, as all the disgruntled player has to do to get rid of the item is "follow the adventure" as you have it plotted. He doesn't have any real say in the matter.
I can't speak first hand of running an adventure with a cursed item attached to a player as the main plot thread, but I do remember railroading my players in a campaign oh so many years ago (well, we didn't call it railroading back then) and it wasn't pretty... they fought the direction of the plot every which way... I wound up the campaign way early and sat in as a player instead of a DM for a few months... it was eye opening... players have much more fun when they feel they have an influence on THE story. I kind of forgot that as I was dragging them by their noses thru MY story.
__________________ Erik
"Because the gods say so, and don't like pointy eared types with curly-toed shoes, squat miners with big beards, hairy-footed midgets, etc." - EGG
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Uhm, you said in your first post the cursed item "is the plot" of your adventure. Not one of many. Is it safe to say without this "plot point" your adventure path falls apart?
This sounds like a bit of a railroad to me, as all the disgruntled player has to do to get rid of the item is "follow the adventure" as you have it plotted. He doesn't have any real say in the matter.
I can't speak first hand of running an adventure with a cursed item attached to a player as the main plot thread, but I do remember railroading my players in a campaign oh so many years ago (well, we didn't call it railroading back then) and it wasn't pretty... they fought the direction of the plot every which way... I wound up the campaign way early and sat in as a player instead of a DM for a few months... it was eye opening... players have much more fun when they feel they have an influence on THE story. I kind of forgot that as I was dragging them by their noses thru MY story.
maybe you don't have the mental capcity to make multiple adventure paths in one campaign... but I do. So keep your one track mind to yourself and quit flaming me just because I don't clarify every single sentance I write.
Adventure path =/= WHOLE CAMPAIGN
IT is somthing I threw in. Yes it is the CURRANT one they're on, because THEY chose to go on it.
One player in 7 being uspet over having a curse is easy to deal with, and not that big of a deal, definately not worth being flamed every second post over.
I'm done being nice about this. Arguing over the fairness was not the intent of this thread.
Aparently I'm the only DM to ever do somthing "unfun" in an adventure ever like pass out a single cursed item and have a way to be rid of it written in the adventure...
WAIT didn't Gary Himself CREATE cursed items? ALSO dindn't he create and PUBLISH whole campaigns based on it?
Oh no, Maybe I'm not the guy you should be flaming.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
There was no flaming in your direction, at least not from me. Clarifying your statements? That i did. Mention when I had a campaign go bad and why it went bad? Guilty.
As for my mental capacity and my apparently one track mind...
__________________ Erik
"Because the gods say so, and don't like pointy eared types with curly-toed shoes, squat miners with big beards, hairy-footed midgets, etc." - EGG
Tenkar's Tavern Exploring the world of VTTs, PDFs, Gaming Related Applications and more
If one good thing came out of this failed conversation about Players Vs. DMs is that I don't feel so bad about the complaints about my cursed item.
The "I'd walk out" or "Id kill myself to thwart you" comments are way worce than my players dislike of his cursed item.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
If one good thing came out of this failed conversation about Players Vs. DMs is that I don't feel so bad about the complaints about my cursed item.
The "I'd walk out" or "Id kill myself to thwart you" comments are way worce than my players dislike of his cursed item.
Well, I'm glad you got something out of it.
A quick comment: you may have gotten the wrong feedback from your POV in part due to your thread title. "Players Vs. DM" has people entering the thread with the bias that this is about a Player / DM Power struggle of sorts. What you probably should have titled it is something along the lines of "Using Cursed Items as a Plot Device... Any Thoughts?" or something. It might have steered the conversation more in the direction you expected. Just a thought. I actually have those on occasions
__________________ Erik
"Because the gods say so, and don't like pointy eared types with curly-toed shoes, squat miners with big beards, hairy-footed midgets, etc." - EGG
Tenkar's Tavern Exploring the world of VTTs, PDFs, Gaming Related Applications and more
I don't think your curse sounds that bad. It sounds like you should check your players' dice though... If that curse was stuck on my character, I would probably think it was a bit lame, but largely because 4E does away with save or die mechanics. In 3E it would make more sense. And yes, it is railroady. The character, especially if he is whining, will want to get rid of the curse as fast as he can. (Thing is, being railroady is not always a crime.)
Regardless, it is of very little use being callous (and inflammatory) towards negative criticism.
Anyway, as for cursed items, I ran the Tomb of Horrors, and...
Spoiler:
The ring of cursed wishing blew up the gnome barbarian.
I also currently have a sword in my True20 game wielded by the fallen paladin. It is a sword that turns undead to dust upon touching them (attack vs. touch AC,) and it also can use more powerful purifying light powers (a ranged radiant damage power in 4E terms.) The curse is that the sword itself is tainted by the undead that it destroys, and each time the sword is used, the character must make successively harder saves for the scene, or risk increasing his undead taint score.
Undead taint is a scale of 0-10, 0 is human, 10 is undead. He is at 3. His skin is pale, his pulse is weak, his skin is cool and clammy. The higher his taint score, the more likely that using purifying light powers will also burn him as well.
The sword is aware that it is tainted, and that it will taint him, and cautions him about using it. The sword communicates telepathically, and warns him of nearby undead -- also urging him to find them and kill them, sometimes springing into his hand.
They are currently on a quest to travel to a castle that is fabled to purify legendary holy swords... but a vampire lives there. Undead are also essentially the primary campaign threat.
Difference is, the player thinks it is cool. (They also didn't know what Ashbringer was at the time I sprung it on them, hah.) There was another sword similar to Stormbringer in the game that they chose to instead destroy.
__________________ --Terwox Books used last session DM'ing:4E PHB, MM.Playing:Wraith: the Oblivion
Murmuur smiled sadly. "We are forever lost, Ahma. Do you not yet understand?" Dream-Not-Dream: Iterating. A new SH for a new take on a very strange game. Updated 6-14-08.
I'll be a little more careful next time while making a thread, This one, in my little opinion failed as a place to discuss what I wanted to and turned into a series of attacks and defences agains myself and others from myself.
Oh well, I live, I learn.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
OK, To be fair, the item sounds a lot tamer after the edit. I go back to 1982, so I don't have a problem with cursed items. In this case, my PC would become central tro the storyline. I could enjoy that.
If one good thing came out of this failed conversation about Players Vs. DMs is that I don't feel so bad about the complaints about my cursed item.
The "I'd walk out" or "Id kill myself to thwart you" comments are way worce than my players dislike of his cursed item.
Well I hope you didn't take my comment as an attack. IMO if you want to do something like this then you need to have an OOC conversation with the player beforehand. An item which does damage if you miss could be a pretty crippling thing, especially if the player had a theme or idea behind the character in the first place. Otherwise, as I said, there are better ways to direct the plot of the campaign. It reminds me of a game I played where the DM directed us in a certain direction by infecting our characters with a deadly disease which could only be cured in one place. It left a bit of a bad feeling among the group.
__________________ Nothing says "fantasy" like misplaced punctuation.
My favourite game is better than your favourite game.
I think that cursed items are fair game in my campaigns, but they require some careful handling.
First and foremost, I think you need to know your players and how well they are likely to "roll with it". If you have people for whom you know that a cursed item is going to suck the fun out of the game then better to steer clear as far as they are concerned. Fun is always a priority.
However some players (like me) have the most fun when there are challenges that can be difficult to overcome. Even then, I think that some care needs to be taken in terms of how the item works with a given character. Let's say you have a cursed "battle axe of the berserker" that forces the first person to pick it up to thereafter always rush into battle with their foes, and never flee until all foes are dead. Now for the Fighter or Barbarian in the group, that's not a huge penalty. I mean sure they are going to be in deep doo doo if the party runs into something they should be fleeing from. And it could be a problem trying to take prisoners. But in the short term this may not be at variance with their normal fighting style so they are almost getting something for nothing.
But what if the Wizard picks it up to examine it and see if it's magical? He is SCREWED. Can't cast his spells in battle and has to rush forward and swing the axe (at a penalty for non-proficiency probably) and can't flee. That is probably going to tend to irritate the player heavily unless there is a fairly immediate way to lift the curse. So what I'm saying there is "be careful how you structure the curse".
That also brings up the issue of "how long are they stuck with this thing?" In most cases I think that they should have a means of release from the curse sooner than later. The more restrictive the curse, the sooner you can ditch it. I don't think that long term (as in "may not be lifted before the end of the campaign") curses are off the table but I do think that they require some buy in by the player as well as being open for choices on the player's part.
For example, I ran a campaign a few years ago in which the party accidentally teleported into Hell (oops). They needed shelter while they were there so they could rest and recover spells so they could get out of there. A friendly, helpful Erinyes offered to let them crash at her place for a small price: A kiss. The party Rogue volunteered (I played dirty pool when I described her as the "unholy love child of Salma Hayek and Lucy Liu") and, amazingly, made his Saving Throw vs. her seduction attempts. Then later, after the rest of the party was asleep, he voluntarily went back and bedded her, this time failing the Save.
As a consequence, she got him to sign his soul over to her. He was basically damned. However she later provided him with an "out": A dagger that sent all souls killed with it, directly to her "inbox". If he killed enough people with that dagger then his soul was out of hock.
So, basically he was cursed. But he sort of willingly walked into it so I knew there was some player "buy in". He also suffered no in-game consequences other than the knowledge that his character was going to a Bad Place when he eventually died. But he really got into the idea of trying to redeem himself while still trying not to become totally Evil (in my campaign, sending somebody else's soul to hell in place of your own, while directly benefitting an infernal creature turns you Evil pretty quick). So he took care to only use the dagger on enemies who "had it coming anyway". And of course he had to keep that on the low down from the party's Cleric of St. Cuthbert.
It made the character and the whole campaign that much more memorable. So I'm in favor of using curses so long as it is done with some care.
So, basically he was cursed. But he sort of willingly walked into it so I knew there was some player "buy in". He also suffered no in-game consequences other than the knowledge that his character was going to a Bad Place when he eventually died. But he really got into the idea of trying to redeem himself while still trying not to become totally Evil (in my campaign, sending somebody else's soul to hell in place of your own, while directly benefitting an infernal creature turns you Evil pretty quick). So he took care to only use the dagger on enemies who "had it coming anyway". And of course he had to keep that on the low down from the party's Cleric of St. Cuthbert.
That's excellent.
__________________ --Terwox Books used last session DM'ing:4E PHB, MM.Playing:Wraith: the Oblivion
Murmuur smiled sadly. "We are forever lost, Ahma. Do you not yet understand?" Dream-Not-Dream: Iterating. A new SH for a new take on a very strange game. Updated 6-14-08.
One kind is the subtle curse that the players may never realize is there, like the old "-1 Shield of Missile Attracting." It was a +1 shield vs. melee weapons, but the moment something was thrown or fired at the character, it turned into a detriment.
When the shield was finally destroyed in a botched saving throw, the DM let us in on the curse.
This kind of cursed item is interesting. Like the Ring of Delusion that someone identified as a Ring of Wishes.
The other kind of Cursed Item is the plot-bearing cursed item. This is the kind you have to handle with care, since some players do not take well to the implied "railroad" plot attached, i.e., "How do I get rid of this thing!?" IMO, it's better to treat this item as a McGuffin to be used cautiously at best (Tolkien's One Ring), rather than to have it be in regular use.
Yeah, while railroading can be a tool at times, I don't think a cursed item should ever be used in such a way. As Rel and Tarek brought out, it should be a way for your characters to excel in roleplaying. Like tossing a truffle before pigs or changing the paths of a mouse's maze to see how they deal with it. If it has no purpose other than pissing players off, then it's not going to be fun to the players. I certainly don't have fun if I'm getting ticked at the DM. Of course, as a player, I would seek the roleplay aspect of such a cursed item. If there is no roleplaying aspect, no way to have fun with it, I'll find a new way to have fun, even if it means leaving the game.
There are better ways to push your plot forward.
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