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Most hispanics I know who play D&D where thrilled by Alhandra and Kerwyn, they didn't see them as being europeans, but as Hispanics. You say you want racial diversity in the art, but then say it isn't diverse enough, because the character still appears to of european descent. All true hispanics are of european descent, those who are not, are not hispanic, but from Native american stock instead. And there are a lot more Hispanics who play D&D then Mayans by the way.
I am a bad person. I never even considered that prospect for Kerwyn and Alhandra. Good show, person with vaguely naughty screen name!
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That's great, but, you know, most Hispanic people I've ever met or seen on TV were a lot browner-skinned than the could-easily-pass-for-Spanish-or-Italian iconics. So, I will definitely concede that you can read Alhandra and Kerwyn as Hispanic, but you can also read them as just European, and I don't think the ambiguity is really a good sign.
Hell, we're arguing about how to interpret the illustrations - how could it not be better to have unambiguously non-Caucasian characters in the artwork? If Hennet in the Player's Handbook looked like the novel cover, or the sketch you posted there, instead of the whitewashed version actually printed, I think everyone would be a lot happier.
Ember is unambiguous: no-one argues about her ethnicity. I'm just saying I'd like to have seen these arguably Asian and Hispanic iconic characters painted as obviously Asian or Hispanic. That's all.
I greatly prefer the ambiguous look, myself. After all, this is a fantasy world. If I recognize someone as being distinctly from one real-world culture or another, it kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief.
By the way, the Pathfinder iconics have names and backstories? I had no idea. Where could I find them? I've been searching the Paizo site...
And by the way neither Italians or Spanish started off with dark hair and darker complexion, it wasn't until after the Moors (arabic) invaded southern Europe and occupied and interbred with the natives that they took on those features. Before that they were pale haired and mostly fair skinned. And hispanics by the way are nothing more then Native American (be it meso, or south american) mixed with european (ie spanish) stock in the first place. .
Interestingly enough, in the Scots and Welsh Celts, there's a long history of "black Celts", folk with a very swarthy complexion, compared to the normal very pale Celtic skin.
Alas that's been taken up by some folks claiming black African's ruled a mythic country here...oh boy ... Facts are more likey to be Phoencian and Greek traders and thier slaves as the root of that difference.
Likewise, the Anui of Japan are another ethnic oddity.
Races in fantasy worlds could have all kinds of natural or magical variations and adaptations.
-BLue-tinged humans who have copper for blood (or green if you like Vulcans )
-Smooth skin, they don't sweat (useful adaptation for Athas perhaps).
And so on. Colour is just one of the many variables.
Also, having race being an issue is logical. Not necessarily in the xenophobic ways of our world, but in taboos and abilities, for example:
the Derial people have unusually large blue irises, and are the only folk who have the ability to be sorcerors.
or, by Imperial proscription, only the people of the island of Valmer maybe priests of the fire god, for their skin is black and have hair like copper, which pleases the god (well, pleases the Imperial culture's philosophy, in reality).
I greatly prefer the ambiguous look, myself. After all, this is a fantasy world. If I recognize someone as being distinctly from one real-world culture or another, it kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief.
I didn't say anything about a real-world culture. Ember is an African-looking woman wearing Chinese-inspired clothing. There's no real-world culture there, any more than there would be if you saw a Vietnamese-looking man wearing European-style boiled leather armour.
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I greatly prefer the ambiguous look, myself. After all, this is a fantasy world. If I recognize someone as being distinctly from one real-world culture or another, it kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief.
By the way, the Pathfinder iconics have names and backstories? I had no idea. Where could I find them? I've been searching the Paizo site...
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
When all is said and done, the lack of "iconic" characters is the greatest 4e mystery to me.
Given how helpful they are to art orders and branding and how easy it is to license and merchandise their images, their absence is an enigma.
Someone must have put their foot down on this matter, and that person made the wrong call.
I'm pretty sure I saw someone in charge (can't recall who or where) say that it was at least partially listening to the artists, who said they were getting sick of drawing Mialee, Tordek, and Lidda.
I'm pretty sure I saw someone in charge (can't recall who or where) say that it was at least partially listening to the artists, who said they were getting sick of drawing Mialee, Tordek, and Lidda.
And from my side of the page, I'm pretty sick of seeing Mialee and Lidda in particular, especially since Naull and Kerwyn are much cooler looking. (I liked the elven druid, 'though, so I'm not a complete speciest...)
He doesn't look Asian in the Player's Handbook, for whatever reason. Maybe that's why they had his face redrawn for the novel cover! But the fact remains.
This is the first time I've ever seen that cover, and I always knew he was Asian. *Shrugs*
(Except for one picture in Complete Mage, I believe, in which he is white with blond hair and blue eyes--took me a while to realize it was even supposed to be him! And that picture is so good except for that, too...)
If you look closely at the picture in the PHB, though, you might see the reason for the weird coloring. It's an attempt to make it look like the glowing green energy in his hand is lighting up his face (and shoulder).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Set
And from my side of the page, I'm pretty sick of seeing Mialee and Lidda in particular, especially since Naull and Kerwyn are much cooler looking. (I liked the elven druid, 'though, so I'm not a complete speciest...)
Samus wore a bikini in her first game, take that as you will.
True, but the original manual referred to Samus Aran as "he", and it was only as a reward for completing the game quickly (or, for us cheaters, using the JUSTIN BAILEY password) that you found out the truth.
This clearly means they should have had a white "male" bishonen as the main character (or keep "him" helmed at all times), and reveal later on that "he" was really a woman.
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I'm not sure how being completely encased in a power suit with no skin whatsoever showing makes something "bishonen."
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Maybe, but I still think she looks more hispanic then white.
She never came off that way to me, especially in other depictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beepeearr
White, really?
I never thought Hennet was Asian. Heck, he looks like Heath Ledger to me. Any tan he may have, or Asian features, certainly get whitewashed (no pun intended) in other depictions.
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Thanks, it hit me later offline, "its probably that human rogue," one of the many iconics whose name I don't know or remember.
Tordek, Regdar, Lidda, Mialee, Hennet, Ember, Krusk, Vadania, Jozan, and Alhandra, that about taps me out. I know there's a gnome named Gimble but I'm shaky on whether he's the bard or the goggle wearing illusionist (though I think probably the bard).
I think I got all the PH ones attached to the class descriptions except that elven ranger guy with the leaf armor.
I'm not sure how being completely encased in a power suit with no skin whatsoever showing makes something "bishonen."
I meant for D&D (in place of Regdar), not Metroid ;-) The implication was that while Samus Aran is a girl, the original Metroid acted like she was male until you got the "bonus" ending. D&D therefore, instead of this 'white bread' stuff, should have had a bishonen-esque male Fighter, and later "drop the bomb" that "he" is really a woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voadam
I know there's a gnome named Gimble but I'm shaky on whether he's the bard or the goggle wearing illusionist (though I think probably the bard).
Gimble is the bard. Nebin is the illusionist.
Quote:
I think I got all the PH ones attached to the class descriptions except that elven ranger guy with the leaf armor.
That would be Soveliss.
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Last edited by wayne62682; 10th July 2008 at 05:16 AM..
Tordek, Regdar, Lidda, Mialee, Hennet, Ember, Krusk, Vadania, Jozan, and Alhandra, that about taps me out. I know there's a gnome named Gimble but I'm shaky on whether he's the bard or the goggle wearing illusionist (though I think probably the bard).
There's also Erbek, the dwarf "other cleric". Erbek doesn't get any love at all.
I think they first made up one "iconic" for each class. Then they realized they didn't have a gnome iconic, and added Nebbin the Illusionist. Then they doubled up on the "main four" classes, with Regdar the other fighter, Kerwyn the other rogue, Erbek the other cleric, and that asian chick who's the other wizard - now each of the main four has one human and one non-human. 3.5 added Gimble the bard.
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Once again, as a non-video game console gamer, I feel left out... What was Metroid again?
Something about space squids that eat energy. And a space bounty hunter who was all cool and stuff... And then, it turns out, the space bounty hunter is a space girl.
Who was trained by space birds to fight crab-like space pirates, and giant space brains in a jar. There were other space monsters.
Something about space squids that eat energy. And a space bounty hunter who was all cool and stuff... And then, it turns out, the space bounty hunter is a space girl.
Who was trained by space birds to fight crab-like space pirates, and giant space brains in a jar. There were other space monsters.
Space.
This post needs more space references.
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And hispanics by the way are nothing more then Native American (be it meso, or south american) mixed with european (ie spanish) stock in the first place.
Unless they are like many Carribean "hispanics" and actually have more African heritage than indigenous.
For example, see the three attached pictures of Puerto Ricans and see our range.
... Facts are more likey to be Phoencian and Greek traders and thier slaves as the root of that difference.
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