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The content guys are the ones that broke 'The Understanding' by intentionally tweaking the composition of the iconics to fit their pre-conceived notions of egalitarianism and what should appeal to gamers. They peed in Marketing's cornflakes, not the other way around.
Because Jozan and Hennet weren't enough white human dudes? What you even talking about? Kerwyn too. Jesus, how many white human men do we need exactly before it's not "peeing in marketing cornflakes"? I guess "more than three!". Seems like your position is untenable to me.
__________________ Hobo - "You're confusing you with someone else."
Ruin Explorer is officially pleased with 4E's DM advice (mostly), and thinks that it's RP-advice etc. is both present and pretty darn solid, and certainly better than all other editions.
My fiancee actually graduated college with an art degree... Granted, she hasn't done any work in the field, but I just found that funny.
Have you tried crossing her, art-wise or dictating what EXACTLY she should be drawing/painting? Because I'm going to advise you right now against doing that
I think what you need to get, and you half-get already, is that a lot of bloody loathed Regdar regardless of his ethnicity or gender, so crying about how it's "KILL THE WHITE MAN! BOOYAKASHA!"-type stuff seems bogus to the max to me. It's just Yet Another Reason To Hate Regdar.
For the record, I'd also have been happy to see Mialee, Lidda (yes that little twonk Lidda), Nebin, Tordek (like we'd even know that extra-generic dwarf was Tordek) and/or Gimble dead on the floor. Maybe I just hate short people or something though.
__________________ Hobo - "You're confusing you with someone else."
Ruin Explorer is officially pleased with 4E's DM advice (mostly), and thinks that it's RP-advice etc. is both present and pretty darn solid, and certainly better than all other editions.
Kudos to Monte for posting that, and kudos to the various artists who have kicked Regdar's ass over the years.
__________________ If knowledge of a game's plot would spoil its experience, it isn't a game.
... A player cannot learn of a game's ending without experiencing it, because a game is not a linear object.
—Mike Mearls
Yes, it is racist, and sexist, that Regdar is a white male human fighter in the center of the art. Yep.
What it isn't is evil, or even necessarily wrong. Racism and sexism are very loaded terms.
Catering to an audience does not make you evil. More poignantly, it isn't even necessarily misguided...
I do disagree with their marketing decision, but at the same time, I think 4E was a good move forward, although it was certainly less than perfect.
__________________ --Terwox Books used last session DM'ing:4E PHB, MM.Playing:Wraith: the Oblivion
Murmuur smiled sadly. "We are forever lost, Ahma. Do you not yet understand?" Dream-Not-Dream: Iterating. A new SH for a new take on a very strange game. Updated 6-14-08.
I used to hate the iconics, until I started watching the Dungeon and Dragons PSAs. Now I think they're awesome. Including Regdar.
What are these Dungeon and Dragon PSAs you speak of? I really really hate the iconics, so I am particularly interested to know.
__________________ Hobo - "You're confusing you with someone else."
Ruin Explorer is officially pleased with 4E's DM advice (mostly), and thinks that it's RP-advice etc. is both present and pretty darn solid, and certainly better than all other editions.
Starting out with a blatant falsehood and sweeping generalization is not the best way to make a point about diversity.
Quote:
but the powers that be believed that our audience was entirely white males and they needed someone that they could identify with on the cover.
Implying everyone who called the shots thought only white makes played the game is quite different from the powers that be recognizing that the ‘white male’ was a large portion of the market share.
As for the notion that Redgar getting slain repeatedly was racially motivated, those whose job it is to be on the front line, do die a lot.
Also, it generally is safer to depict a male being killed than a female, from a marketing perspective. Depicting a kill on a female runs the risk of someone claiming the art is advocating violence against women. Kerwin got a good amount of abuse too.
I'm just glad to see that the DnD developers didn't want any white males in their game. Nothing like reverse racism.
Wow. Just seriously WTF?
We'rent there like 4 other white characters in the iconic party? Where did you get this from? So ANY representation of anyone who ISNT white is reverse racism?
__________________ I'm thinking you're totally out to lunch on this one. Find another form of foreplay that doesn't involve 3 hours of explanation and a pocket calculator.
I'm just glad to see that the DnD developers didn't want any white males in their game. Nothing like reverse racism.
I hate that phrase. It implies that racism normally only goes one way. Just because the media only pays attention to racism directed toward minorities doesn't mean that an equal amount of racism isn't directed back toward the majority.
In short, racism is racism.
Back on topic...
I don't get it. There are other white male iconics. Why is Regdar the focus of all of this attention? Just because he got a cardboard display?
__________________ Mike McConnell, Freelance RPG Writer Currently Working On: Starblazer Adventures: The Planet Killers
Co-Owner of Imagineering Inc, formerly known as BC-Products, and the owner of the original Tact-Tiles.
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We'rent there like 4 other white characters in the iconic party? Where did you get this from? So ANY representation of anyone who ISNT white is reverse racism?
No, he's right. This is absolutely "nothing like reverse racism."
__________________ -------
Ethan Skemp
CCP NA/White Wolf Publishing
Jeebus! He's just a fighter and I don't mind him or any of the other iconic characters. The only thing that can really annoy me is when the artwork is bad (in my opinion, of course).
__________________ This is SO wrong on SO many levels...
I know there are other iconics. It just ticks me off that a developer just HAS to point out that he didn't want the main character to be a white male, and it must really piss him off, as he is still bothered by it. Political correctness gone mad, or racism?
You know, this is one of those things where I was always completely in the dark. I never looked too closely at the cover art when it depicted to iconics, so I always assumed that Regdar was black. Even after 'playing' the interactive DVD, I still assumed he was black, and I was totally cool with it.
My personal preferences are usually to play the meat shield, usually as a white guy, but not for any particular reason. One of my friends in a D20 Modern game I ran played a black man. He's not black in real life. Another one of my friends always plays a female with red hair in any game we play, whether it be an RPG or an MMO. Yet another friend of mine always plays a male character who is quite a bit older (I think the median age he plays is about 45). My wife likes to play axe wielding foul-mouthed dwarves.
My point here is that I agree with Monte that players can and do see beyond themselves, and that it is absolutely a good thing to use characters of a variety of ethnicities and races as iconics.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
Marketing wants a "Big lug with a big sword" on the front cover. This is perfectly legitimate if you think you need to reach back to Conan and Elric or go to the FFVII well for as close as you can get to a Buster Sword in the PHB.
So who do you hand the "Big lug with a big sword," job to, exactly? If you give it to anybody other than the white guy you get accused of racist overtones by depicting "persons of color" as unintelligent / savage / defined by physicality.
Same thing goes for making a certain character "Kenny," by the way. If you put a female character or a "person of color" through all the abuse and mutilation heaped upon Regdar you risk being accused of racial intimidation or misogyny.
If you need a character to be extensively abusive, abused, depraved, or depicted as a "lug" of some sort without much in the way of special enlightenment your go-to-guy is always the random white dude - that's how people play it safe. No one who counts is allowed to be offended so you catch less flack that way.
Fantasy settings are generally well equipped to avoid this trope, though. They've got so many trans-racial options (non-human species) that you really don't need to go there. In 4th Edition they can easily make a Dragonborn be the Conan stand-in or have random Eladrin and Tiefling deaths and not have to worry about racial overtones.
Marketing wants a "Big lug with a big sword" on the front cover. This is perfectly legitimate if you think you need to reach back to Conan and Elric or go to the FFVII well for as close as you can get to a Buster Sword in the PHB.
So who do you hand the "Big lug with a big sword," job to, exactly? If you give it to anybody other than the white guy you get accused of racist overtones by depicting "persons of color" as unintelligent / savage / defined by physicality.
Bull. If he'd been East Asian-styled no-one would have made such allegations. Black, maybe.
The rest of what you're saying is somewhat correct, except that you seem to think that it's an accident that in an iconic-free edition of the game, the iconic character of the previous game is being killed repeatedly.
__________________ Hobo - "You're confusing you with someone else."
Ruin Explorer is officially pleased with 4E's DM advice (mostly), and thinks that it's RP-advice etc. is both present and pretty darn solid, and certainly better than all other editions.
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