General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
As for the notion that Redgar getting slain repeatedly was racially motivated, those whose job it is to be on the front line, do die a lot.
I do remember someone from WotC gleefully pointing out what sort of torture all the iconics went through in the art from Dungeonscape. They seem to have this focus on torturing all the iconics. Redgar certainly would get the brunt of that as one of the center stage iconics (even after the initial focus on him at the beginning of 3E).
Any other focus on Redgar certainly deals with the fact that he was "unwanted" and forced into the position rather than just his race (which is a factor, but a tangential one). So, I agree that such focus is only incidentally racially motivated.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Heh, I wondered why there were two Fighters. Still, it kinda worries me how the people on that site talk gleefully about seeing Regdar maimed and dead in the artwork. Like violence is the solution to perceived...I'll stop there. Forum rules and all.
Dude, you're talking about a game whose basic theme is killing things & taking their stuff.
Given how helpful they are to art orders and branding and how easy it is to license and merchandise their images, their absence is an enigma.
I'll grant you the first, but Jesus, Erik! When did Wizards of the Coast ever license or merchandise the iconics? A short series of unsuccessful D&D novels and a couple of named droplets in the collectible miniatures ocean? Maybe a calendar or two?
Paizo with its Pathfinder iconics has already beaten out everything Wizards of the Coast ever did with the D&D iconics except writing them into a novel or two.
It would be pretty trivial to turn the Fourth Edition class portraits into iconics, if you wanted to do that. I hope they don't, because they're pretty boring: all white-skinned (if they can be, and even the tiefling warlock looks less red-skinned than white with firelight casting a colour shadow), 75% male (only the ranger and warlock are female), et cetera.
__________________ Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, "I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.
When all is said and done, the lack of "iconic" characters is the greatest 4e mystery to me.
Given how helpful they are to art orders and branding and how easy it is to license and merchandise their images, their absence is an enigma.
Someone must have put their foot down on this matter, and that person made the wrong call.
I'll note that after 4E was announced there was a thread on the WotC forums asking whether there should be 4E iconics, and if so whether any or all of the 3E iconics should make the leap. The sentiment in that thread was heavily against having any iconics (to my regret, being pro-iconic).
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
It would be pretty trivial to turn the Fourth Edition class portraits into iconics, if you wanted to do that. I hope they don't, because they're pretty boring: all white-skinned (if they can be, and even the tiefling warlock looks less red-skinned than white with firelight casting a colour shadow), 75% male (only the ranger and warlock are female), et cetera.
You think so? I thought the Cleric was kinda asian-looking, on a weird way
__________________ "I am King of the Romans and above the rules of grammar!" - Sigismund, Roman Emperor and my new hero
"Craft and profession skills are a tax on people who believe characterization and back-story are important." - Obryn
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the typical D&D party is to medieval armies what the A-team is to modern police." - Eamon
"I realize falling isn't specifically a push, pull, or slide, but I'd heavily argue that gravity is forced movement." - Old Gumphrey
I appreciate Monte's post on a level nobody's mentioned yet: I love glimpses like this into the inner workings of a game company.
Oh, and Regdar is also being devoured by the original Ochre Jelly from the D&D Miniatures line. Pretty funny before I knew this back-story, and funnier now.
__________________ Jeff Wilder, San Francisco Bay Area If your sig is longer than your posts, your sig is too
long. Nobody reads it, they just get annoyed by it. And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me. - Belly
You think so? I thought the Cleric was kinda asian-looking, on a weird way
Eh, kinda, or he could just be grimacing in the midst of combat. It's pretty ambiguous, and that's the point: they all look white, there's no explicit diversity.
It's the same way with the races themselves: the dwarves have rare non-human skin tones (grey or sandstone red); eladrin have human skin tones but are overwhelmingly fair-skinned; elves are supposed to be "tan or brown" but are presented as white; half-elves have "the same range of complexion as humans and elves" but are presented as white, one of the halflings looks like she was modelled after a young Penny Johnson Jerald (which is cool); both humans look white (although the woman looks like an attempt to do Asian eyes on a white girl); tiefling skin "covers the whole human range and also extends to reds" but both of them are white.
The issue is slightly confused by the fact that William O'Connor does not use naturalistic skin tones for his illustrations anyway, of course. Both humans, for instance, are pale-skinned and obviously so, but because the artist doesn't paint people's skin to look like people's skin it's impossible to say for sure what he was intending. Maybe the human woman was supposed to look totally Asian (though the European colour of her hair suggests not).
Hell, apart from the halfling, the female dwarf fighter with geisha makeup at the beginning of the next chapter (p. 50) brings more diversity into the illustrations than the whole races chapter.
__________________ Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, "I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.
I'll note that after 4E was announced there was a thread on the WotC forums asking whether there should be 4E iconics, and if so whether any or all of the 3E iconics should make the leap. The sentiment in that thread was heavily against having any iconics (to my regret, being pro-iconic).
Which is why it would be stupid to run a business based off an EN World poll.
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