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Far be it for me to put words in the designer's mouths, but it seems like the goal was to make a multi-ethnic, multi-racial group of iconic characters working together and sharing the spotlight, and marketing decreed that there would be a group of multi-ethnic, multi-racial sidekicks to the heroic white tough guy. Sort of a D&D Superfriends.
They already had a fighter, he was a dwarf. They had white males, Jozan and Hennet. Marketing wanted a strong, white male warrior front and center, above the other characters, and that was Redgar, and that's why he's the whipping boy.
This, I completely agree with. Redgar is a completely pointless, late-addition to the group and he is put there due to marketing rather than any other consideration. The gleeful revenge of artists and designers who are in a position to do something about this insult to gamers intelligence is something to be applauded.
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I always liked Regdar, as the intelligent fighter guy (likewise Roy from OotS). I never envisioned Regdar as white though, and any artwork that clearly depicted him as such was, to me, clearly in error.
I'd take Regdar over Tordek any day, and Eberk over Jozan, for that matter.
I too always saw Regdar as non-white. In fact, to me he was pretty much Vin Diesel with a goatee. The whitest I have seem him depicted is precisely in the 4e Rituals chapter (look at him in the warlord chapter, looking non-beaten up).
So "3E designers" tried to circumvent "TSR policies". "Marketing" tried to circumvent "3e designers". And "Artist" managed to circumvent "Marketing".
I never envisioned Regdar as white though, and any artwork that clearly depicted him as such was, to me, clearly in error.
Same here. With the images of Redgar that come to mind I remember a lot more where he isn't white than ones where he depicted as white.
There is also a statement by Lockwood somewhere that he purposely made Redgar ambiguous in his racial identity so I always took the verying shades of his skin tone as part of that ambiguousness. (Is that even a word?)
I too always saw Regdar as non-white. In fact, to me he was pretty much Vin Diesel with a goatee. The whitest I have seem him depicted is precisely in the 4e Rituals chapter (look at him in the warlord chapter, looking non-beaten up).
So "3E designers" tried to circumvent "TSR policies". "Marketing" tried to circumvent "3e designers". And "Artist" managed to circumvent "Marketing".
I know Vin Diesel has a multi-racial background, but he's always looks exceptionally white to me. Like he could have been on Friends he looks so white.
I have no useful opinion about Regdar's race. I don't even remember his hair color. He's a face in a helmet so far as I recall.
However, I wonder why the creative team is being held up as some sort of holy infallible group. They gave us Hennet. That's proof enough that they err.
They even gave us man-face Mialee.
Cheers, -- N
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Now my question is... isn't this a self perpetuating attitude? If you believe white males will be turned off from a game by having a different ethnicity grace the cover of a book... well logic says the opposite is also true. I mean if you aren't trying to grow or expand your market... then it makes perfect sense. However if you are, then not so much.
Absolutely it is, and that's classic TSR-logic.
Erik Mona - I'm not sure it's as "smart" a decision as you seem to be implying. WotC's iconics made me actually less likely to buy products from them, because, on some level, the art is part of why I buy a product, and I really hated seeing the same wankers over and over again. Exalted's wankonics are similarly irritating, though WoD iconics are bland enough to blend into the background, at least. I was really not happy, though, to go from the varied fantasy art of 2E, to seeing the same twonks over and over and over again, in 3E. I know I wasn't alone in this feeling. I'm not sure how much mileage you get out of merchandising something when some percentage of your player-base strongly dislikes it.
CountPopeula - Does that make 3E the "Friends" of RPGs? I could see that.
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I wouldn't really label it 'TSR-logic'. In the 80's and 90's you had mainstream book publishers that would regularly 'white-wash' covers that featured black characters and not include author pictures with the back-flap bio if that author was black (unless that book was slated to sell in the African-American section). (And I say specifically black rather than 'non-white' because that's usually the only point things break down; you could find a number of asian characters on book covers in the same period since that was also the big 'japan-o-phile' phase of fantasty and SF).
I usually like Cook, but this is just cynical 90s nonsense. An attack on all things white and vaguely European. Diversity is great. Not being racist is great. But artificially engineered diversity is worse. Boo Monte Cook.
I usually like Cook, but this is just cynical 90s nonsense. An attack on all things white and vaguely European. Diversity is great. Not being racist is great. But artificially engineered diversity is worse. Boo Monte Cook.
Yeah, because that's what he did... launch an attack "on all things white and vaguely European".
Quick question, if marketing has an agenda that is counter to diversity... how does diversity come about except through someone having the resolve to engineer it "artificially". Throughout history this is exactly how diversity has been achieved. "Artificial" diversity, as you call it, is what sets the groundwork so that it starts to become more natural and organic as time goes on.
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Yeah, because that's what he did... launch an attack "on all things white and vaguely European".
Quick question, if marketing has an agenda that is counter to diversity... how does diversity come about except through someone having the resolve to engineer it "artificially". Throughout history this is exactly how diversity has been achieved. "Artificial" diversity, as you call it, is what sets the groundwork so that it starts to become more natural and organic as time goes on.
That is the problem with 90s racial thinking. It assumes marketing departments dictate race relations in the US. This is why white suburban people think racial tension is dissapating, but people like me who live in ethnically diverse neighborhoods know that is not the case. Hauling around your one or two ethnic friends to show what an enlightened person you are doesn't make the world a better place. Ignoring the truth behind racial stereotypes doesn't make for better race relations on the ground. A better approach would have been for the marketing department to accurately reflect the racial makeup of gamers. So instead of inflating the number of ethnic characters, something like 80% white to 20% non-white would have been more believable.
I usually like Cook, but this is just cynical 90s nonsense. An attack on all things white and vaguely European. Diversity is great. Not being racist is great. But artificially engineered diversity is worse. Boo Monte Cook.
As a white guy, I have to say I'm not thrilled about someone saying that "not having a white guy be the number one character" is an attack on "all things white." I mean, really — it's "white" to insist to be the Number One Guy?
Pass.
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Ethan Skemp
CCP NA/White Wolf Publishing
As a white guy, I have to say I'm not thrilled about someone saying that "not having a white guy be the number one character" is an attack on "all things white." I mean, really — it's "white" to insist to be the Number One Guy?
Pass.
As a non-white guy, I think there is nothing more pathetic and sad than self loathing white folk trying to impress minorities.
If the definition of "self-loathing" is "would also like to see stories about people who are not explicitly modeled on yourself."
Me, I think that's some heavy-duty projecting.
The whole notion of Monte Cook telling us what a good guy he is because he was upset that Redgar, the white fighter, would be the figure head of the artwork, is frankly a little insulting to all the real injustices we have had to endure. Come one. It is art for a game that mostly white folks play.
Might explain why he seems to die an awful lot in D&D artwork
Weird because I look at the covers on MALHAVOC PRESS product page and....
The Night of Dissolution - white male warrior
The Temple of Mysteries - Undetermined male warrior
The Book of Roguish Luck - white male
The Banewarrens - white male warrior (although it could be a dwarf?)
Mindscapes - white male
Requiem for a God - white males
Cry Havoc - White male warrior
The Bonds of Magic - white male
Iron Heroes - white male warrior
The Book of Hallowed Might - white male warrior
Book of Hallowed Might II - white male warrior
Book of Eldritch Might III - white male warrior
He seems to have plenty of the stereotype, certainly more than half except for the Arcana Evolved, product line.
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