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No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. They are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.
Why would you be disgusted by the product. This seems a perfect example of money versus time. You can spend 10 bucks and have everything you need and more for a PC or spend your time creating nice looking cards yourself. Is the time spent making the cards yourself worth the ten dollars you saved in not purchasing them? Your call
__________________ -You're Gonna Carry That Weight
Yeah, but there is a line between the game being centered around these things (minis, dungeon tiles, power cards) and a game that uses them as enhancing elements. IMHO, 4e falls into the category of being centered around these things.).
Except people have expressed the ability to play without any of these things, thus they are not required. If they were, play would be completely impossible without them.
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4e was touted as playing faster... but if you don't have your powers on some type of card it plays way slower than previous editions.
BS. I don't use power cards, as I haven't found a set I like enough to invest in printing them nicely and having them laminated, and things still run faster than they did in 3e.
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People claim it is just as mini-centric as 3e... but IMHO, it is definitely more mini-centric and requires some sort of grid to track spatial relations.
I'd say 3e is equally mini-centric, with things like having to measure line-of-effect from the corner of a square, as well as picking an origin point where 4 squares meet in order to create bursts.
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There are numerous marks and conditions which continually change on a round per round basis and thus require various types of marker for each.
And this is different from 3e, with it's round-based durations, how? In fact, 4e has less conditions (16; 17 with Bloodied) to track than 3e did (38).
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In fact my opinion is that the game was designed to push people towards using the DDI.
Well, if that's their intent, then they're doing a bad job by making the game easier than ever to manage at the table, and by not having the DDI available.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
It's no longer D&D, it's fraking Magic: The Role Playing Game.
Is that the best you can do? Really, if you have a different opinion fine, please share it. If you're going to reply with flame bait, go do it at gleemax.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Except people have expressed the ability to play without any of these things, thus they are not required. If they were, play would be completely impossible without them.
BS. I don't use power cards, as I haven't found a set I like enough to invest in printing them nicely and having them laminated, and things still run faster than they did in 3e.
I'd say 3e is equally mini-centric, with things like having to measure line-of-effect from the corner of a square, as well as picking an origin point where 4 squares meet in order to create bursts.
And this is different from 3e, with it's round-based durations, how? In fact, 4e has less conditions (16; 17 with Bloodied) to track than 3e did (38).
Well, if that's their intent, then they're doing a bad job by making the game easier than ever to manage at the table, and by not having the DDI available.
Okay Mourn, whatever. You have your opinion, I have mine and we rarely if ever find common ground or change each others minds. All you have is anecdotal evidence and all I have is anecdotal evidence... so really, what's the point of us even debating?
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
Is that the best you can do? Really, if you have a different opinion fine, please share it. If you're going to reply with flame bait, go do it at gleemax.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
I'm glad they're releasing power cards and I'm not at all sure, they've planned this all along.
While I am pretty sure the WotC cards won't be as good as some of the fan-made ones, I'll still prefer the WotC ones if they're sufficiently sturdy. My problem is not having access to a good printer. Printing them at a professional print-shop would _definitely_ be more expensive than 10$ per set.
I won't buy all of the sets though (at last initially), only the ones I actually require to play my character(s).
Another thing that worries me about WotC selling "official" power cards is what their stance will be regarding the distribution of the filled out power cards, especially since we still haven't heard a peep about their fansite policy. If they were to pull something like this, it would again be another reason I would not purchase these cards... and probably would be through purchasing WotC stuff period.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
Frankly, it's such an obviously dumb idea that I'd by shocked if anyone in WotC even considered it.
It's also just plain obvious. If it wasn't brought up, it'd be the elephant in the corner, so better to get it out and be officially done with it.
Plus, if you have ever attended brainstorming and idea generation training/workshops, there's a basic rule. One of the first things they tell you and continue to drill into your head is that any idea can generate another idea. Everything should be put on the whiteboard (or whatever) and reviewed later. That one thing is probably what cripples more so-called "brainstorming sessions" than anything else.
If the idea was never put on the table, it would only be because the people at WotC were inept. Not that its inclusion shows masterful planning. I just think you're holding your shock and condemnation by the wrong end.
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Originally Posted by Darkwolf71
No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. They are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.
Fair enough. I have neither the artistic talent nor the time to make my own -- at least not having them look like anything more than scrawls on an index card. Since I've come to a point where I appreciate presentation value in my gaming tools, I'd pay $10 for a deck.
I'll caveat that by saying that I wouldn't do it for a one-shot or buy all the cards at once. But, definitely for a long-running character/campaign. My current 3.5 game has been running for 4+ years and I don't think $10-20 for spell cards would have been considered unreasonable for either the wizard or the druid.
Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.
If you're really going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."
Ok, I'll take the requisite break before replying.
I don't think that that is a fair reply. I didn't say how many that I expected. I was not comparing the price of a deck to the price of CCG cards. I was also not conveying disgust. (I do think that this term is inappropriately strong in regards to my question.) However, the fact of my question, that I chose to ask about this total price, shows that I find the price significant, and in context I think that it is reasonable to infer that I do find the price to be high.
I am divided on whether having each class be encapsulated as a single deck is an overall plus or a minus. The underfactoring of the power design allows each class to be self contained (that's good -- nice and simple and easy to use), but it seems to bloat the number of powers and make understanding them hard (that's bad). Uncharitably, I wondered if having distinct power decks was a design point when the power lists were created. I also did wonder how the game came to be designed such that the game utilities add up to $80, on top of the $25 - $40 ish price for the players handbook. (I wonder, too, if there are alternatives: How many powers can fit on a single card? Could the decks be split across tiers -- 1-10, 11-20, 21-30?)
Ultimately, is $10 a deck too high? I haven't seen the ultimate product, so I can't really make a complete judgement on that.
To provide background on myself, to explain my outlook on the game: I am a longtime D&D player. I purchased most of the 3.5E books (both from WoTC and from 3rd parties, and I do mean most of them.) I purchased the 4.0E core books and initial modules (I'm a fiend for modules). But, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the new game, and don't think that I will continue purchasing the books or online products.
Another thing that worries me about WotC selling "official" power cards is what their stance will be regarding the distribution of the filled out power cards, especially since we still haven't heard a peep about their fansite policy. If they were to pull something like this, it would again be another reason I would not purchase these cards... and probably would be through purchasing WotC stuff period.
Probably the same as character sheets.
The GSL doesn't allow you to republish the actual info on a given class/power, just its name and relative calculations (in the form of npc stat blocks, for example). Since reprinting info on powers is taboo, no company can create power cards for profit.
HOWEVER
Much like how WotC sells a character sheet pack (abit a poor one) but allows modders to make their own PDF sheets for download (but not for profit) I'm sure PDFs of power cards made for download and profit will not be taken as an affront to WotC's power cards. Assuming their cards are decent (M:TG level) cardstock and nicely done, more than a few people will drop the cash on a deck or two. WotC has no real fear from people making these puppies on their PCs and printing them on cardstock with their inkjets. In fact, I'd wager a complete set of card would run about $10 per class if you printed your own on an inkjet anyway.
So, making a PDF of all wizard powers? Probably not going to bother WotC. Making your own decks and selling them? Trouble. Same as character sheets.
Fair enough. I have neither the artistic talent nor the time to make my own -- at least not having them look like anything more than scrawls on an index card. Since I've come to a point where I appreciate presentation value in my gaming tools, I'd pay $10 for a deck.
I'll caveat that by saying that I wouldn't do it for a one-shot or buy all the cards at once. But, definitely for a long-running character/campaign. My current 3.5 game has been running for 4+ years and I don't think $10-20 for spell cards would have been considered unreasonable for either the wizard or the druid.
I'm just glad I'm DMing at this point. It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go. Cards are too perfect a solution to tracking encounter/daily powers. When we made our first batch and players started 'tapping' them, I nearly puked. It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic.
They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go.
I'm not entirely convinced that this is the case. If WotC had planned up front to have the power cards be a major part of the marketing strategy, I think the PH sets would be releasing later this year, instead of January 2009.
Judging from the simultaneous release of the PH and Martial Power decks in January, compared to the April release of the PH2 decks the month after the release of the PH2, my suspicion is that these cards are a relatively late addition to the planned product line. Supporting this is the fact that the cards do not yet appear in the product section of the WotC web site, nor on Amazon. (I'm also guessing that there is no picture of the cards in the Spring 2009 catalog, and I'd be interested if thalmin could confirm or deny that guess.)
So my theory is that while the idea of power cards was probably floating around all along, they weren't part of the initial release schedule and have now been added (or brought forward) based on demand.
Who cares when it was planned? They're gaming accessories. Its like whining that they wrote a game that works well with a DM screen, then tried to sell you one.
I don't know, I could probably come up with several reasons whay the first set might be delayed. You would be hard pressed to convince me that these haven't been in development for some time.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
I'm just glad I'm DMing at this point. It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go. Cards are too perfect a solution to tracking encounter/daily powers. When we made our first batch and players started 'tapping' them, I nearly puked. It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic.
They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.
From reading your posts in this thread, you seem to be upset that WotC wishes to make money selling DnD related products (Minis, power cards, DDI accounts, etc) to those who wish to purchase them.
Personally, I wish them all the luck. The products they do produce that I think are neat/fun/worth purchasing, I will buy. Those that do not meet my needs, I will pass on. That's the great thing about capitalism, many companies produce products that they want me to purchase and I (and my fellow consumers) select the products that we like the best to become successful.
As with any DnD, gaming product, or general item; I will determine if I like it, if I think it is worth them money to purchase it, and if I need such a product. I do not begrudge the company for making a product to sell me, I vote whether I like it or not with my dollar.
__________________ -You're Gonna Carry That Weight
I like that they are non-random and that they are organized in a fashion wherein I wouldn't be collecting cards for classes I have no intention of playing. Some classes just don't appeal to me. There are some fan-created, high quality cards already in existence however, so I may just use those if I decide to play a class I don't normally play. I'm sure the WotC cards will be high quality and I'll get a couple sets for my favorite classes however.
WotC seems to have neglected Magic Item cards, or did I miss something?
It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic.
Now, this is a legitimate concern. In fact, it's one I share. Based on the reports so far, I'm willing to give the game a shot before condemning it. But, as I really, really hate CCGs, I'll be drop-kicking it if it actually does feel like a CCG.
I've played games before that could or did use cards and didn't feel like a CCG, so the power cards alone don't condemn 4e for me.
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They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.
Good aids can really speed up play. They can also help bolster the weaker players (social gamers, semi-interested spouses, newbies, just plain busy, etc.), too.
If WotC has an otherwise solid system (that's key) that they designed with an eye toward making play aids available, that's actually a plus for me. I certainly don't want the cards to be nearly indispensable, but I don't think these are. I'm betting that I could run a 4e wizard without power cards just as well as I could run a 3e sorcerer without spell cards -- which is to say any weakness stems from my ability rather than a systemic requirement for an accessory.
I'm actually betting that 4e cards are, at worst, as necessary as monster stat cards are for a 3e conjurer or druid -- more likely, the 3e character has more need for the cards. Since I'm starting a 6th level master conjurer tomorrow night, I'll have personal experience there soon enough.
February
Agents of Artifice [Planeswalker -- is this Planescape?]
I can answer this one.
Nope, it's not Planescape; it's not, in fact, a D&D novel. It's the first of a new line of Magic novels, focused on planeswalker characters. (It's also, for the record, a novel that more or less stands alone, and was written to be accessible to people new to Magic: the Gathering, so while it makes a lot of use of Magic's history, it doesn't require much in the way of prior knowledge.)
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I cannot begin to state how fully I disagree with the people claiming that D&D plays like a CCG.
In my own group, only half of us are using home-made power cards. Some of us feel they speed things up, some of us don't. Me, I don't think it makes a huge difference, as long as you have your powers summarized on something--a sheet of paper works just fine. Frankly, I find it no more complex than keeping track of which spells I'd cast as a wizard or druid in 3E.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
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