General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
You know the one thing I'm kind of lost on is the Basic Set... why are they waiting until November to release this. I mean if the point of 4e was to attract a new market, you'd think this would have been a priority to at least be released before or with the actual core rulebooks. In fact I would argue they should have made one big boxed set that included the basic rules/the KotS adventure/counters (or even better, minis) and maps as a first release... and it would have sold like hot cakes. I think this would have even made the reprint maps in KotS more understandable.
Instead KotS released to pretty "meh" reviews, and pretty poor reviews as quality goes, and now that the basic set won't even have minis in it like the 3.5 set (which actually got me too buy it for that and the tiles), I wonder how this item is really going to do as far as sales. IMHO, this is one of those things that could really help WotC generate more revenue, by bringing in more gamers, yet they continuously treat this product (throughout all the editions under their watch) as a second rate release.
SIDE NOTE: My fiancee's sister and her boyfriend came by our apartment and saw some of my gaming stuff on a table. Both her and her boyfriend asked me about it... After a conversation both asked me if I would run a game that included them and they're son. Now I would have loved to have been able to point them to a good introductory product for their son who they would love to see "Do something besides playing video games" but instead I'm going to start running a game for them (not sure if it will be Castles & Crusades or D&D). . So by the time November comes out the usability of this product will be nill for them. Wasted opportunity WotC
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
About Arcane Power: It seems there will be more Arcane Classes than Martial ones (no problem with that), I'm just surprised that Sorcerer is Arcane and not Primal.
Also what is with the Artificer, isn't he an arcane Class too?
Indeed, good question. Will the Eberron books be out by the time Arcane Power is released? If not, then I don't think we'd have the full version of the class yet.
Maybe at some point we'll get extra powers for the Artificer in a supplment on the DDI.
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
Are you running SoW and are interested in getting some ideas on the overarching plot?
Looking for better ways to tie the disparate modules together?
Come visit my thread on doing exactly that! Also, visit the wiki it inspired! Player's stay out!
The artificer won't be supported in that book, because the artificer won't be fully developed until the Eberron Player's Guide goes through dev. It just didn't make sense to support an unfinished class in a book that already had more classes covered than Martial Power needed to. We were already designing powers for PH2 classes that weren't finished!
Shemeska and lkj: There are several books coming up that provide what you're looking for (like Draconomicon and Open Grave). We're supporting that content on D&D Insider, too.
Mercule: Do you hate the 4th Edition Realms specifically, or the previous versions. If it's the previous versions, you might like some of the new trappings and the new approach to it. Of course, you might not. But we have tried to make it more accessible and to add new things both to get people who disliked the Realms interested in it and to give old-timers something to make the Realms seem fresh again.
__________________ Logan Bonner
Designer, Dungeons & Dragons
Wizards of the Coast
The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description. Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?
__________________ No black and white in the blue.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
Shemeska and lkj: There are several books coming up that provide what you're looking for (like Draconomicon and Open Grave). We're supporting that content on D&D Insider, too.
Thanks for dropping in with the info. So when do we see the other power sources? (Just kidding, I know you can't tell me)
The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description. Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?
I'm pretty sure that's an error on the news page. Swordmage is showing up in the Forgotten Realms book, and they appear to be supporting 'setting classes' in their power books.
Mercule: Do you hate the 4th Edition Realms specifically, or the previous versions. If it's the previous versions, you might like some of the new trappings and the new approach to it. Of course, you might not. But we have tried to make it more accessible and to add new things both to get people who disliked the Realms interested in it and to give old-timers something to make the Realms seem fresh again.
First, thank you very much for offering input to this discussion. I think it's very cool that some WotC folks do that. And I always appreciate it.
Full disclosure of bias, please don't stop with this paragraph: The Realms have never resonated with me since it was released. The short form is that the Realms have come to represent, to me, much of what caused me to bail on D&D in the early 1990s. Rightly or wrongly, I doubt I'll ever be able to look at it completely objectively. Ironically, the more of an uproar the 4e changes cause among old fans, the more likely I'll be to check it out. I will, though, check out the 4e version with as much objectivity as I can -- seriously.
What I'm concerned about, though, is that this is an indicator of Player's Guides to come. The Eberron PG will have the artificer. The Ravenloft PG will have the necromancer. The Dark Sun PG will have the psion. It may not be those specific classes, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. There are roughly 10 pages in the book that lots of people will want, even if they have no interest in the remainder.
I've bought my fair share of campaign settings over the last 25+ years. But, I generally bought them either because I was curious or because they sounded cool in their own right. The idea of buying a setting because I want a single, specific piece of crunch just doesn't sit right.
On a related note, I do like the three-then-done model for settings. It makes me much more likely to buy a variety of settings.
By the time Arcane Power comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).
AND we still won't have a Martial Controller. The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.
By the time Arcane Power comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).
AND we still won't have a Martial Controller. The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.
You can not fill the role of a Controller with a Martial Character. They just don't work. Every example I have seen suggested either 1) was not truely a Martial character or 2) was not really a Controller.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description. Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?
Yup seems to me they got this wrong on the news item, as there doesn't seem to be any confirmation of it appearing in the PHB 2.
On the question about other power sources I lept to a conclusion on page 4 of this discussion which I've copied to below
post from page 4
It seems also they are only releasing them when the Power Source has reached its full complement of classes, 4 from what I can see. This would leave me to believe the Divine Power coming out in autumm(fall)/Winter next year and the Primal Power coming out in spring next year, with the PHB 3 which will contain the Shadow and Psionic and hmm another source, with 4 of one source and 2 each of the other two leading to a Power book of one of those sources in autumn that year.
So I see the release list a bit like this (in terms of PHB's and Power books):
2008 Summer: PHB
2008 Autumn/winter: Martial Power
2009 Spring: PHB 2
2009 Summer:Arcane Power
2009 Autumn/winter: Divine Power
2010 Spring: PHB 3 [for Psionic, Shadow and Ki? heroes]
2010 Summer: Primal Power
2011 Autumn/winter: [Something Power] the source which has 4 classes from PHB 3
2012 Spring: PHB4
2013 Summer: [Something Power] one of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4
2014 Autumn: [Something Power] the remaining of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4
regarding the martial controller class, hmm if they can do one coolio but I'd rather they not force it.
__________________ Ginnel
"Someone on the internet is wrong!"
Shabe on sharing loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabe
Of course you may be talking about all of the above in character where all the characters in the party count every single coin and keep track of it individually and all know the exact price of items, all can divide big numbers in their heads and all carry around a handy set of dice with them for when the roll off occurs, then of course you are fine, else well done you've taken some of the r out or rpg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginnel
If you want to create something different do it.
All elves are fat and prone to flatulence and their nickname is Gary.
Bang I've just changed my world do the same with yours.
what I actually look like
me in B&W
me in red
me in yoga pose
Last edited by Ginnel; 31st July 2008 at 09:51 PM..
Why can't you build a martial controller, I can think of a couple of routes.
Sniper = use ranged attacks, ranged interrupts and reactions, and fear to create zones.
Pole Arm Wielder = same as above only centered on the controller
Harrier = uses speed to create zones and area effect attacks, interrupts and reactions that allow him to move and attack when certain actions occur with a certain range. Basically character makes a close blast attack, which really consists of him flitting about smacking multiple foes, most powers should have an effect that requires him to end turn next to last opponent attacked
Saboteur = sets improvised traps to create zones, uses things like greek fire, thunderstones and the like but with bigger effects, create some martial rituals that allows the saboteur to create more complex traps (also think crafting in general should find a home as martial rituals)
To build an actual class you could even combine these concepts. Make two roles range and quick. The ranged role generally have powers that focus on creating fear in the opponent through sniping, while other powers revolve around trick shots and "trick arrows"
The quick role has powers that use speed of foot to create zones and effects to pull off the harrier route and general quickness to grant a pseudo reach by darting forth and springing back (basically spring attack) to do what the the polearm route would do.
Give the traps as rituals.
Just because or only current example of a controller relies on big flashy magical effects, does it mean they all will. Instead of a fireball the character just fires a ton of arrows, or one really good shot which frightens any allies nearby. Instead of a lighting bolt, the controller lines up a shot that either penetrates through multiple opponents or grazes several before finally hitting his true target. Remember hit points are just as much about morale as actual damage a martial controller should be all about creating fear in his opponents.
In this case it's not the arrow that does the damage it's the fact that the guy you were just talking to now has an arrow through his throat.
__________________ Gaming group looking to add a few additional players in the Fort Worth TX. If interested email billyandstacey@sbcglobal.net for further information.
You know the one thing I'm kind of lost on is the Basic Set... why are they waiting until November to release this.
Seriously? I would have thought that'd be obvious: Best Christmas Prestent Ever!
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
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Jackie Chan would approve (as he decimates a horde of ninjas with a refridgerator door)...
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
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By the time Arcane Power comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).
AND we still won't have a Martial Controller. The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.
A divine controller is somewhat more plausible, and though there's a decent chance there is one in PHB2, I have no idea what it is; no existing 3.5 class really qualifies (though some cleric and druid builds did).
Really, if you go through the power sources listed in the PH1
martial - most likely will never get a controller
divine - could easily have no striker or no controller
arcane - only power source known to have a 'full set'
primal - probably gets a 'full set'
elemental - probably doesn't have a leader
psionic - probably doesn't have a leader (the Complete Psi Ardent was very forced) ki - again, probably doesn't have a leader, and might not have a controller (even Street Fighter II/Tome of Battle desert wind style ki powers seem more single-target than area of effect)
shadow - might have a complete set, but could easily be missing a defender (hexblade works, but is a bit redundant)
And monk is almost certainly a ki striker, which was obvious the day ki showed up on the official list of upcoming power sources.
A divine controller is somewhat more plausible, and though there's a decent chance there is one in PHB2, I have no idea what it is; no existing 3.5 class really qualifies (though some cleric and druid builds did).
Really, if you go through the power sources listed in the PH1
martial - most likely will never get a controller
Probably right, I can't think of one...
Quote:
divine - could easily have no striker or no controller
Most likely there will be, since there's 8 classes in the PHB and 2 of them are arcane, the other 6 can't all be primal. And there's certainly room for concepts such as Inquisitor (striker) and Theurge (controller). Besides who's going to get powers like Destruction or Slay Living?
Quote:
arcane - only power source known to have a 'full set'
primal - probably gets a 'full set'
elemental - probably doesn't have a leader
Elemental hasn't really been defined, or even distinguished from primal. But I could easily see there being some class that calls out/enhances the elemental nature of their allies.
Quote:
psionic - probably doesn't have a leader (the Complete Psi Ardent was very forced)
There's quite a lot of room and concept for a psionic leader. The ardent wasn't good since they took away half of it's abilities and made it the Divine Mind. Also you could so easily throw some telepathic powers, and ever fan-made 'hivemind' concept on to the ardent and you'll have your psionic leader.
Quote:
ki - again, probably doesn't have a leader, and might not have a controller (even Street Fighter II/Tome of Battle desert wind style ki powers seem more single-target than area of effect)
I'm really at a loss at what the other classes would be, other than monk. They could reinstate the ToB classes, and controller would be the most difficult to come up with.
Making the Wu Jen part of that power source would be really forced and too much about the wrong type of cultural pidgeon-holing, as Wu Jen (Chinese for 'Witch Person') is clearly a class that should be elemental or primal.
Unless there's the plan on bringing back some of the Incarnum classes. In which case the Incarnate could be a ki controller.
Quote:
shadow - might have a complete set, but could easily be missing a defender (hexblade works, but is a bit redundant)
I have a harder time envisioning a Shadow-leader.
Sure Hexblade might be redundant in that it could overlap with the Warlock (since it would be all about cursing) and Swordmage, but I think there's plenty of ways to make a class around using curses to be a defender.
As for the other shadow classes, I suspect it would be Shadowcaster (controller) as a necromancer/illusionist and Ninja (striker).
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