General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Strange. When I read your setup, my first thought was: "Kobolds can write? No way."
I guess it's all a matter of how you portray kobolds in your game, but in all my years of gaming I would never expect a random kobold to A) write Common, B) use human propaganda relevant to a particular culture against a group of characters.
Strange. When I read your setup, my first thought was: "Kobolds can write? No way."
I guess it's all a matter of how you portray kobolds in your game, but in all my years of gaming I would never expect a random kobold to A) write Common, B) use human propaganda relevant to a particular culture against a group of characters.
Everything else seems hunkey dorey to me.
Yeah it seems odd that they would be able to convince a town to throw them out. To them the workings of a human village would be as foreign as the politics of a kobold lair. Can you imagine how your PC's would fair in trying to get a Kobold lair to kickout its most powerful warriors using psychological tactics.
Sorry but that just seems too farfetched.
JesterOC
Last edited by JesterOC; 31st July 2008 at 07:13 AM..
Reason: spelling errors ;)
They aren't able to deal with kobold minions effectively, let alone two that by inexplicable twist of fate are a cut above the average kobold.
Inexplicable twist of fate? No way - you have your reason for their power boost right there!
***
Two kobolds - the last two survivors of a bloody fight to the death - enter their warren. Bodies surround them, bodies burnt like the damned in Hell. Soldiers. Women. Hatchlings.
One of the kobolds falls to his knees and wails uncontrollably, horrible, torturous wails that echo down the cavern. It sends the vermin who had come to feast on this grusome banquet scurrying away.
The other kobold searches the charred remains and finds a twisted bone ring. He pries it off the body's ring finger. Burnt flesh sloughs off. He squeezes it in his scaled hand until it draws blood.
'I have entered the Endless Night, oh my Queen. You say "Forgive no wrong and let no slight go unpunished." I ask you for the power to right this wrong, to punish those who did this to me. I pay you with the only thing I have left in this world - my soul, and the souls of those who did this.'
***
Now - make up some new monsters that play off of that. 2 Level 5 Elites. They both have that ability that I created above.
One of them has something like this: Wail of Despair (standard; recharge )
Close blast 3; +10 vs. Will; 3d6+4 psychic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Not Again (immediate reaction; when first bloodied; encounter)
The kobold's Wail of Despair recharges.
The other guy has some funky stuff, too.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
Yeah it seems odd that they would be able to convince a town to throw them out. To them the workings of a human village would be as foreign as the politics of a kobold lair. Can you imagine how your PC's would fair in trying to get a Kobold lair to kickout its most powerful warriors using psychological tactics.
Sorry but that just seems too farfetched.
JesterOC
I didn't read it that way, actually. I saw it more as the fact that they were actually going to kill a bunch of babies, not that they were specifically trying to get them kicked out. I figured that'd just be an unintended side-effect.
I could be wrong of course, but that's what I figured when I first read the post.
This is the only part I'd handle differently. Why make the kobolds NPCs and not full-fledged "tougher monsters"? Statting out monsters as NPCs is a pain. They accumulate multiple power, running counter to the 4E design ethic of "give 'em 3 or 4 powers and leave it at that." If your kobolds manage to survive for a bit (and I hope they do) their NPC stats could get pretty cumbersome.
I am not sure how Morris plans to do this, but there are class templates and rules to create a class NPC that will make an NPC with class powers, but still easier to handle then a full-fledged PC.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
Man, yeah, I hate it when DM's write backstories like "My entire village was wiped out by monsters, and I alone escaped and plotted revenge and became a hero."
Yeah, that never happens in playing D&D. Ever. No human ever escaped a marauding orc horde and lived for vengeance.
What's wrong with kobolds following the same logic?
When I was reading, I understood it was all ok when I read the following line: "I've been known to make it very, very difficult to kill such recurring villains. When they do they've actually lept up and danced about it."
I'm not a big fan of recurring villains that keep getting away... however, I let it go when the DM has *actually had them killed in the past.*
It's a GOOD villain if years later, the players remember how much they hated the villain, and how great it felt to finally off the guy. Don't some of your favorite gaming moments revolve around FINALLY getting "that guy"?
Anyway, yeah. Monsters lived through an onslaught, and gained some levels because of it. Bad simulation, sure. Who cares. Should make for an interesting story.
Inexplicable twist of fate? No way - you have your reason for their power boost right there!
***
Two kobolds - the last two survivors of a bloody fight to the death - enter their warren. Bodies surround them, bodies burnt like the damned in Hell. Soldiers. Women. Hatchlings.
One of the kobolds falls to his knees and wails uncontrollably, horrible, torturous wails that echo down the cavern. It sends the vermin who had come to feast on this grusome banquet scurrying away.
The other kobold searches the charred remains and finds a twisted bone ring. He pries it off the body's ring finger. Burnt flesh sloughs off. He squeezes it in his scaled hand until it draws blood.
'I have entered the Endless Night, oh my Queen. You say "Forgive no wrong and let no slight go unpunished." I ask you for the power to right this wrong, to punish those who did this to me. I pay you with the only thing I have left in this world - my soul, and the souls of those who did this.'
***
Now - make up some new monsters that play off of that. 2 Level 5 Elites. They both have that ability that I created above.
One of them has something like this: Wail of Despair (standard; recharge )
Close blast 3; +10 vs. Will; 3d6+4 psychic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Not Again (immediate reaction; when first bloodied; encounter)
The kobold's Wail of Despair recharges.
The other guy has some funky stuff, too.
Pointe the Firste: the quick and simple way for the village to end up realizing the error of its ways is for one of the PCs to sneak in under cover of darkness and pull the same stunt a few times (this time with authentic dragonfire). Fear as a weapon only works as long as your target doesn't respond, "Why, yes, you should fear us that much, and here's why. *murder*" and let anarchy happen.
Pointe the Seconde: Optionally, they may just decide to return to the fort, dig a firebreak, and burn down the surrrounding forest themselves, followed shortly by sacrificing the entire town to (insert chosen demon here) to gain Fire Resist as a contingency.
Look, if the rules of the universe state that horrible deeds of evil and slaughter can lead to power-ups, then you should expect the PCs to act accordingly.
Also, see similar statements about consequences being meaningless in a world without rules.
Dragonborn are rare, but not unheard of, and the kobolds intend on using the human village's mistrust of the party's dragonborn to their advantage. The adventure starts with a baby impaled in the town square. The corpse will be burned in a manner similar to the kinds of burns the breath weapon will do. A note will be attached -- "42 eggs, 28 children - this is the first."
While this is certainly a "nice" start, it seems a bit arbitrary to me.
Do kobolds even know common? Can they write it?
How do they know of the village's mistrust of the dragonborn?
Bye
Thanee
__________________
“In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!”
In Memoriam Dave Arneson († April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax († March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
turning two missing Kobolds into major threat to the settlement suddenly immediately spawns two issues:
- how come the settlement actually survived until now?
- how did two Kobold turn into terror capable of devising such strategies?
If you need to turn this situation against players, you would be better off with Kobolds making a pact with an evil mastermind instead of waving magic wand.
Also, if you turn those Kobolds into such a threat, the next time players get sent on a similar mission of extermination, they may not stop with killing kobold females and younglings. They may raze Kobold nest to the ground, impale kobold heads on spikes as a warning and probably kill several neutral members of other species nearby to leave a lasting warning.
Why would they do that?
Because by using two Kobolds to pull a Rambo on PCs, you send a clear message - guys, you were not thorough enough... and now look at consequences.
Also, the message of those two kobolds could be read like this: guys, don't bother helping villagers. They are ungrateful bunch who got by safely without you. So, better collect your gold and leave without looking back.
Regards,
Ruemere
__________________ Keeper of Scarred Lands Repository. Keep your .sig fit - save space and bandwidth.
Look, if the rules of the universe state that horrible deeds of evil and slaughter can lead to power-ups, then you should expect the PCs to act accordingly.
Also, see similar statements about consequences being meaningless in a world without rules.
I thought that's what D&D was about - horrible deeds of slaughter (maybe or maybe not evil) leading directly to power-ups!
I understand the argument about consequences, but I'm coming from the point of view that Mike knows his players best, and is doing what will be best for his group.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
Sorry to interrupt, but I think this whole concept is awesome, and I might be stealing some tidbits of it for my own campaign (which just started this week). Thanks, Michael!
Chris
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filcher
Give the kobolds box cutters and an airline ticket and they will bring down the U.S.
I’m don’t like the town turning against the hero so easily. If you truly want the town to turn against the PCs runs something like this. PCs are wakened in the inn by somebody throwing stones at the window. When they investigate out the window they see the door to the neighboring house wide open with a broken chair in plain view. When the PCs get to the house they see the house has been brutally ransacked but a baby is crying somewhere inside the house diabolical laughter is heard. The kobolds sets a trap on one of the doors which spills blood on the PCs if they trigger it. The kobold inside is signaled and climbs down from the second floor. Perhaps the PCs see the escaping kobold so they know the truth. When the PCs reach the top floor of the house, the town’s bell starts ringing. What will the PCs do when confronted by the Sheriff covered in blood?
I'd recommend having the PCs being hero's given the latitude to investigate the crime and perhaps find a witness who saw the entire thing. Perhaps a halfling guttersnipe who is down on his luck and is known to thieve pies. The group perhaps could find foot prints somewhere in town.
I find it amusing to that some in this thread interpret a pair of kobolds being able to infiltrate the outskirts of a settlement and kill a baby as some sign of the town being unable to defend itself. Mass histeria folks - as well policed and defended as my home town of Knoxville is in real life that didn't stop one determined loon from opening fire with a shotgun in a church a week ago.
Small criminal groups and deranged individuals can do nasty things to communities even if they cannot hope to outright overthrow the status quo or ruling order. City walls stop the invasion of armies, but a pair of kobolds - not so much. Will they succeed? The first time sure - the party won't be watching for it. Will the party get kicked out? Depends on how they handle themselves when brought up for questioning. Will the party be able to stop the little beasts from doing it repeatedly? I don't know - but they certainly should be given the opportunity to.
What I plan out before the session is very different from what I do because I listen and react to the group.
As to the ability of two kobolds to pull this off - that's not indicative of a defenseless township by a long shot and to characterize it as such is to demonstrate ignorance of the long history of criminal justice.
Last edited by Michael Morris; 31st July 2008 at 06:09 PM..
Reason: typo correction
Small criminal groups and deranged individuals can do nasty things to communities even if they cannot hope to outright overthrow the status quo or ruling order. City walls stop the invasion of armies, but a pair of kobolds - not so much. Will they succeed? The first time sure - the party won't be watching for it. Will the party get kicked out? Depends on how they handle themselves when brought up for questioning. Will the party be able to stop the little beasts from doing it repeatedly? I don't know - but they certainly should be given the opportunity to.
Agreed.
Give the kobolds box cutters and an airline ticket and they will bring down the U.S.
I find it amusing to that some in this thread interpret a pair of kobolds being able to infiltrate the outskirts of a settlement and kill a baby as some sign of the town being unable to defend itself. Mass histeria folks - as well policed and defended as my home town of Knoxville is in real life that didn't stop one determined loon from opening fire with a shotgun in a church a week ago.
Small criminal groups and deranged individuals can do nasty things to communities even if they cannot hope to outright overthrow the status quo or ruling order. City walls stop the invasion of armies, but a pair of kobolds - not so much. Will they succeed? The first time sure - the party won't be watching for it. Will the party get kicked out? Depends on how they handle themselves when brought up for questioning. Will the party be able to stop the little beasts from doing it repeatedly? I don't know - but they certainly should be given the opportunity to.
What I plan out before the session is very different from what I do because I listen and react to the group.
As to the ability of two kobolds to pull this off - that's not indicative of a defenseless township by a long shot and to characterize it as such is to demonstrate ignorance of the long history of criminal justice.
Criminal justice is the wrong metaphor. We do not live adjacent to a hostile species in direct and murderous competition with us for land, resources, and the like, whom we mutually kill on sight. If we did, interactions with that species would be a military matter, not a civil matter.
Basically, if there are kobolds, and if the expected interaction of humans and kobolds isn't the nice, polite raiding or even the murder-and-loot but total genocide, then the mere presence of the original kobold colony was a sign of a threat.
Fear is a huge motivating force. No one wants to think about their baby being burned on a stake by Kobolds, no matter how small the chance might be. If the kobolds indicate: Turn on the heros or we will burn more babies- there will be pleanty of people ready to turn on the heros no matter how illogical it might be.
For an example that works well:
Anyone see The Dark Knight? Look how quickly they turned on batman?
I find it amusing to that some in this thread interpret a pair of kobolds being able to infiltrate the outskirts of a settlement and kill a baby as some sign of the town being unable to defend itself. Mass histeria folks - as well policed and defended as my home town of Knoxville is in real life that didn't stop one determined loon from opening fire with a shotgun in a church a week ago.
Small criminal groups and deranged individuals can do nasty things to communities even if they cannot hope to outright overthrow the status quo or ruling order. City walls stop the invasion of armies, but a pair of kobolds - not so much. Will they succeed? The first time sure - the party won't be watching for it. Will the party get kicked out? Depends on how they handle themselves when brought up for questioning. Will the party be able to stop the little beasts from doing it repeatedly? I don't know - but they certainly should be given the opportunity to.
What I plan out before the session is very different from what I do because I listen and react to the group.
As to the ability of two kobolds to pull this off - that's not indicative of a defenseless township by a long shot and to characterize it as such is to demonstrate ignorance of the long history of criminal justice.
Infiltrating a walled town in the middle of a somewhat hostile wilderness >> walking into a church that prides itself on welcoming everyone. Infiltrating a town whose (somewhat xenophobic) population you do not look even remotely like is harder than infiltrating a church filled with members of your own race. Doing this, and then launching attacks without drawing any attention is also very hard.
The kobold's plan isn't impossible in the abstract (it is, perhaps, overly devious and might require knowledge the kobolds don't have), but it is almost certainly beyond their capacities. If they were lvl 10+, well, things might be different. If they reduce their plan to terrorizing outlying farms (which, themselves, are probably well defended if the world is to be self consistent), then things might work out for them (I would still expect a farm to be able to fight them off, a couple of guard dogs+a non-minion farmer or two is a minimal defense force).
The kobold's plan isn't impossible in the abstract (it is, perhaps, overly devious and might require knowledge the kobolds don't have), but it is almost certainly beyond their capacities. If they were lvl 10+, well, things might be different.
Have you seen their Stealth checks? With a little bonus (for night, let's say), they can Take 10 and get a 21. Not bad!
I don't think it should take a skill mod of +15 or so to sneak into a sleepy little village.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
Wail of Despair (standard; recharge 
)
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
