4e / GSL WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by Lizard

Boy, if only someone had thought that might be possible back when the OGL was first released, and asked Wizards if this would be acceptable or permissable.

He wasn't talking about WotC's view or response to it, he was talking about his own view, based on preferences. He, like me, is pissed off when he purchases a book to find that 75% of it's page count is dedicated to a system we already own or could download from the SRD site. Yes, it's permissible and acceptable, but it's a cheap and lazy way to artificially inflate the cover price by reprinting something verbatim to inflate the page count.

Mutants & Masterminds? Good, because most of the content is wholly original.

World of Warcraft RPG? Bad, because most of the content is just a verbatim reprint of the SRD.

[renau1g]

This is great. I can't wait for Paizo to pump out some 4e material (I hope they do), as I loved their AP's for 3.5e.

[racoffin]

I have hopes that this change will make at least some of the people/publishers happy and we can have an assortment of product for the various editions that will be the talk of the forums rather than the GSL.

That said, I find myself wondering about all the talk of sales and trying to prove that they are low, or lower than expected, or whatever is trying to be proved. What, exactly, is the point of all that? Is there the thought that, despite countless dollars in sales and R&D and advertising that WOTC will say "Oh well, that didn't work, shucks we will go back to 3.5?" The ship has sailed. 4E, for good or ill, is where D&D is going now. I, for one, don't wish poor sales for WOTC anymore than I wish them for any of the game publishers; we are all poorer when one of our own goes down, no matter how big or small.

Dislike the wording of the GSL or some of the changes for 4E, sure, but how about we put down the pitchforks and torches and stop this crusade?

[Henrix]

I just want to say thank you, to Linae, The Rouse and Orcus! (And anyone else who's worked on making this happen.)

[blargney the second]

Thanks for the continued communication, Scott and Linae. I hope the next iteration of the GSL is a win-win outcome.
-blarg

[ShadowDenizen]

My group and I are non-adapters of 4E; that said, I know other groups, some of whom have adapted, some of whom have not.

Of those who DIDN'T adapt, many of the players have attributed these to negative views of WotC. (Some are still sore over the Dungeon/Dragon situation, the lack of 3PP support, and more than a few over the failed launch of the DDI gametable, amopngst other issues.)

That said, I honestly think we all want to see D+D [as a brand] grow and prosper, even if we don't adapt. And so, I've been eagerly keeping up with news about 4E.

So, I'm pleased that WotC has seemingly listened to it's fans and supporters, and will be loosening the GSL. I also want to thank the ROuse and Linae for keeping us updated; it can't be easy beng in high-profile, highly-criticized postions, and to do so with such calm and candor is a credit to them and, by extension, to WotC.

[Orcus]

Originally Posted by Darrin Drader

What? You have me all wrong. I don't think they're the heart of evil; far from it. They're more like the appendix or gall bladder of evil.

That explains why I am such a big Wizards supporter! (though not a paid shill as you now know) -- I had my gall bladder out some years back. It all makes sense ...

(Just teasing DD, that was funny, the gall bladder of evil)

[Orcus]

Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse

Q) Is Clark Peterson a payed shill or something?

A) No, but we value Clark's insight and opinion and want to see publishers like Necromancer make 4th edition compatible supplements.

Thanks for covering for me, Scott. [nudge, nudge, wink, wink; you're still sending that check, right? Right?]

[ShinHakkaider]

Originally Posted by ShadowDenizen

That said, I honestly think we all want to see D+D [as a brand] grow and prosper, even if we don't adapt. And so, I've been eagerly keeping up with news about 4E.

I havent adapted. I was a fairly regular supporter of WOTC and TSR before that.

At this point I really don't see how if WOTC stopped producing D&D material how it effects me in the least. My LGS may go away? I'll miss it but I'll get over it. I'll get what materials I need directly from the companies that I tend to support. There wont be any "official" D&D stuff anymore? As of right now there are alot of people out there who are playing RPG's who are NOT playing "Official" D&D. Even guys like me who are using 3.5 / Pathfinder Hybrids arent using "Official" D&D stuff.

I think 4E is a well designed game, there are things that I liked so much that I've adopted them for my 3.5 game. But if WOTC got wiped off the face of the earth I think that the world, the RPG world would keep moving. Nature abhors a vacuum.

[Urizen]

This is some pretty interesting news, to be sure.

I for one would like to see a more user friendly system reference document. It doesn't have to be as user friendly as the 3.0 SRD, but, dang there's alot of room for improvement.

[lurkinglidda]

Originally Posted by Orcus

I had my gall bladder out some years back. It all makes sense ...

(Just teasing DD, that was funny, the gall bladder of evil)

Me too. And I did chuckle at the gall bladder bon mot.

[williamhm]

I just hope WOTC is still able to maintain control of their product, as anside if I want to play dnd I want to play dnd, not a clone or rip off, if I want to play a different rpg I do not want that rpg to be using dnd mechanics.

Also I really do not want companies to be able to mooch off of WOTC without doing a significant amount of work themselves.

Maybe its because Im not a 3rd party publisher, but can someone tell me whats wrong with the current one? I mean if you are going to publish a product for use with WOTC products shouldnt you be willing to follow their rules?

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by The Little Raven;4423801Yes, it's permissible and acceptable, but it's a cheap and lazy way to artificially inflate the cover price by reprinting something [b

verbatim[/b] to inflate the page count.
.

Or, it's a way to keep people from having to lug around multiple books, especially when many small details of the rules are changed to fit a setting.

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Originally Posted by racoffin

That said, I find myself wondering about all the talk of sales and trying to prove that they are low, or lower than expected, or whatever is trying to be proved. What, exactly, is the point of all that?

Dislike the wording of the GSL or some of the changes for 4E, sure, but how about we put down the pitchforks and torches and stop this crusade?

It is remotely possible that some of us aren't on a "crusade" and are trying to figure out why WotC is possibly changing the GSL to be more open.

Logically, even if you don't care about editions, or even D&D, they're going to change it for a reason. With a business, the reason is always money -- the bottom line. This in turn suggests either 4e is successful and they're hoping to make MORE money this way, or 4e is (relatively) unsuccessful and they're hoping to revive the franchise in this manner.

So no pitchforks need be involved to speculate that WotC's revision of the GSL (if it really happens) is motivated by poor sales of 4e, since that is an objectively logical reason for them to be making the GSL more open.

I don't object to 4th edition, because I'm sort of dissatisfied with ALL the editions of D&D at the moment .... but I certainly entertain the possibility that 4e is 'bombing,' without wishing that to be true.

[Filcher]

Originally Posted by Atavar

You just lost a customer. At least you can console yourself with the fact that you had total control over the attitude that lead to that outcome, and it didn't even cost you one red cent.

Atavar

Ditto, this. I might not like the GSL more than anyone else, but I can refuse to buy product from a professional that appears to lose his temper on a public forum, lombasting WotC reps. that have plenty of better things to do with their time.

Edit: The above is unclear. I'm grumpy about how LPJ is treating the folks from WotC.

And for what it is worth, there were several "what do you guys think about this" meetings between Wizards and the 3pps over the GSL. They solicited input on a number of occasions.

Am I the only one that was alive when TSR ruled the roost and the thought of an open license was alien?

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Originally Posted by williamhm

Maybe its because Im not a 3rd party publisher, but can someone tell me whats wrong with the current one? I mean if you are going to publish a product for use with WOTC products shouldnt you be willing to follow their rules?

Well, the current one can be changed or revoked at any time. Furthermore, whatever you have published under the current GSL cannot be published under any other system, ever. Basically, you're signing over the right to your intellectual property (IP).

So in other words, if you make up your own detailed Squidgeworld RPG and use the GSL to include 4th edition rules, and WotC later revokes the license, you cannot print Squidgeworld with a different ruleset. You have to ditch Squidgeworld totally and start all over, and you have to destroy all existing stock as well.

There's also a clause which allows WotC to sue you over violations of a contract that can be changed AT ANY TIME WITHOUT NOTIFYING ANYONE, and which states that the company being sued has to pay WotC's legal costs, even if WotC loses.

It's like renting a store. Sure, the owner of the building can write up a contract saying "We can decide to change the color of the paint inside the store at any time without notifying you. If we find that you haven't repainted the store to match the new color, we are legally entitled to sue you for possession of your house and your last name." But that doesn't make it a particularly fair contract, or one that it's wise to sign.

Basically, the current GSL is a very, very, very risky contract to sign, because you're giving WotC almost total arbitrary power over your company and products.

[vagabundo]

Thanks Guys.

I was a little hesitant about signing up the GSL, but I've had some stuff that I really want to publish for 4e. Hopefully the revision will quell most of the fears.

[Vayden]

Originally Posted by Filcher

Ditto, this. I might not like the GSL more than anyone else, but I can refuse to buy product from a professional that appears to lose his temper on a public forum, lombasting WotC reps. that have plenty of better things to do with their time.

Ditto. Prior to 4e, the only 3pp products I had ever purchased were Iron Heroes and Ptolus from Malhavoc. Since the announcement of 4e, I've spent a lot of time on EN World looking for news and discussion. Based only on the impressions Ari and Clark have given from their behavior on the forums (sense of humor, rationality, enthusiasm about the same elements of role-playing/game design I enjoy) I am definitely going to pick up Ari's APG when it's released, as well as the first 4e product Necromancer Games puts out if they do end up going 4e. I'm sure most of the 3pp know this already, but the way you come across on the boards is part of getting that crucial first sale, after which the quality of your product can speak for itself. For what it's worth, I've also been generally favorably impressed by Paizo's people when I've seen them on here - if they ever go 4e, I'll be checking out their stuff too.

(Looking forward to my first purchases of 4e 3pp products )

[Grimstaff]

Originally Posted by Atavar

You just lost a customer. At least you can console yourself with the fact that you had total control over the attitude that lead to that outcome, and it didn't even cost you one red cent.

Atavar

I agree.

Professionalism is obviously not on the "total control over" plate in this case...

[Grimstaff]

I'd like to chime in with Thanks to Scott and Linae for their efforts at making the GSL friendlier, and for braving the lion's den here at ENWorld to discuss it!

Imo, you've got a great new edition, and I'm looking forward to anything Necro, and other 3PPs still on the fence, can add to it.