4e / GSL WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD

[Mercule]

Originally Posted by Branduil

Can we now put to bed the ridiculous idea that WotC wanted to get rid of 3pp support?

Hope springs eternal.

[Ginnel]

Originally Posted by mechascorpio

I'm also totally stunned by the lack of professionalism and, IMO, hypocrisy from some in this thread. They really seem to enjoy putting the screws to "the man", taking this from professional disagreement to a dedication to shame individuals and their employer in public as much as possible.

Fine. I've also made some notes of who has said what, in this thread and others. They won't have my support as a customer, even if they're a contributor for a product of another publisher. You drag the hobby down. It's one thing to be understandably skeptical, but some here are just over the top. I bet that neither Scott nor Lidda nor a single employee at WOTC have ever been so rude, in such a personal fashion, to their colleagues in this industry as some here have been to them.

You should keep in mind that as "indie" (or small company) publishers, writers and designers, you are marketing youselves with every post you make. As far as I'm concerned, some in this thread blundered far more in the past day or so than WOTC has all year. Hope it was worth it to you.

OTOH, others are showing real class under the circumstances. I bet your enthusiasm and professionalism carry through to your products. I've noted that too, and I look forward to purchasing them.

A well written post, echoing my sentiments almost to a tea.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Charwoman Gene

No, that's *snip*

Comeone, Charwoman Gene, don't be so bitter. Eriks choice of words were... poor, but let's be "better" than that. It also keeps the mods happy...

[Ourph]

Originally Posted by mechascorpio

I'm also totally stunned by the lack of professionalism and, IMO, hypocrisy from some in this thread. They really seem to enjoy putting the screws to "the man", taking this from professional disagreement to a dedication to shame individuals and their employer in public as much as possible.

Fine. I've also made some notes of who has said what, in this thread and others. They won't have my support as a customer, even if they're a contributor for a product of another publisher. You drag the hobby down. It's one thing to be understandably skeptical, but some here are just over the top. I bet that neither Scott nor Lidda nor a single employee at WOTC have ever been so rude, in such a personal fashion, to their colleagues in this industry as some here have been to them.

I would just like to add my +1 to this sentiment. When 4e was first announced, I was very skeptical about the changes. I looked into Pathfinder as an alternative and saw some stuff that I liked. But the behavior of some of the Paizo fans and contributors both here and at the Paizo boards really soured me to the game and even motivated me to reconsider my stance on 4e - which I eventually ended up buying and liking. Since I started running a 4e game, at least 3 of my other gaming friends have also changed their minds about 4e and, knowing them, if that hadn't happened they likely would have bought into Pathfinder as well. I count that as 4 lost Pathfinder sales because people associated with Pathfinder chose the low road.

[Vocenoctum]

Originally Posted by Darrin Drader

So the half on this poll here Changeover poll who are not switching are non-representative?

900 votes? I'm not even sure that's representative of what ENWOrld thinks, let alone what the players overall think.

How about the 150+ people I talked to a week and a half ago at the convention in Spokane where I was a guest, half of whom didn't have very positive things to say about 4E? Or how about the local game store where I'm seeing the same trend? I suppose that you'd count that as anecdotal, or better yet, question my integrity since I've made up my mind about which game I'm playing.

You know it's anecdotal, and you also already remarked in this thread about dismissing Internet "evidence". (While disregarding amazon ranking and such of course.)

Integrity is whether you're presenting information you know to be flawed as accurate in order to further your goal. Only you can say whether that's true.

[mechascorpio]

Originally Posted by Ourph

I would just like to add my +1 to this sentiment. When 4e was first announced, I was very skeptical about the changes. I looked into Pathfinder as an alternative and saw some stuff that I liked. But the behavior of some of the Paizo fans...

I just want to be clear about my original statement. My sentiment has nothing to do with edition numbers or Paizo or anything other than common courtesy and professionalism. I've yet to look at Pathfinder and haven't really encountered its fans, so my comments weren't motivated by that. I'm simply saying that if I were to see colleagues in my own industry (broadcast video) act like this, I wouldn't see them as very professional, nor think much of their products and publications, nor the companies that chose to work with them.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by lmpjr007

<snip>
A number of LPJ posts in this thread
<snip>

Wow... I just pulled three sidetreck adventures OUT of my rpgnow shopping cart.

You just lost another customer. And I have spent over $3000 on 3.x PDFs.

[Delta]

Originally Posted by Vocenoctum

900 votes? I'm not even sure that's representative of what ENWOrld thinks, let alone what the players overall think.

Whether it's representative or not has almost nothing to do with the number of votes cast.

[JRRNeiklot]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Wow... I just pulled three sidetreck adventures OUT of my rpgnow shopping cart.

You just lost another customer. And I have spent over $3000 on 3.x PDFs.

For what? Speaking the truth? Have you hired a lawyer lately?
And who can deny the GSL (as it stands) was a bad business decision?

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Alzrius

I know that sounds rather awful (and quite possibly selfish), but when the current GSL debuted, it made a lot of companies who would have produced 4E materials balk, and in some cases kept them in the 3.5 camp. Needless to say, for those of us who had no interest in switching editions, this was a great thing, as it kept some of our favorite companies producing the materials we wanted to see. However, solidarity fades away if there's a lack of opposition, and I'm worried that if the new GSL is friendlier, those companies will drop their 3.5 support for 4E. I don't want Kobold Quarterly to become a 4E publication. I don't want Paizo to let Pathfinder go in favor of a new 4E venture (though in all honesty that seems unlikely now anyway). I want third-parties to continue producing 3.5 materials, rather than 4E materials - but without a GSL that heavily penalizes them for it, they may now go ahead with the 4E plans they originally had.

In some weird Alice in Wonderland way, I can totally understand this and feel what you are saying.

But jeeeeeeez. Isn't there ENOUGH 3.x material out there already? I currently have enough quality 3.5 material to DM for the rest of my life. Is there really a need for more? It's one thing to wish for support when your options are limited, but my goodness.... Just in adventures and campaign source books alone I don't even think I could read it all, let alone DM it all.

[Najo]

Originally Posted by ConanMK

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to Scott and Linae for their hard work on this and thie continued dedication to open gaming and a GSL that appeals to 3rd party publishers. Keep fighting the good fight, and I'll be as supportive as I can.

I like to second this. Scott and Linae, thank you for everything your doing to make the GSL a welcoming place for the 3PP. D&D's business model is obviously evolving and it is good to know WOTC sees the value of companies like Necromancer and Paizo getting behind them.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by JRRNeiklot

For what? Speaking the truth? Have you hired a lawyer lately?

Why? Are you going to sue me because I decided to not buy some PDFs?

I made this decision because I didn't like the attitude of the man produced them. I buy a lot of RPG materials. I choose what to buy not just for the quality and originality of the material, but also for the reputation of the writers. I don't like the attitude he is taking regarding this announcement, which by all rights is a GOOD thing. It speaks about his character and that carries a lot of weight with me.

[drothgery]

Originally Posted by Vocenoctum

900 votes? I'm not even sure that's representative of what ENWOrld thinks, let alone what the players overall think.

If the poll is flawed (and I think it is), it's because of selection bias and because multiple voting is possible (i.e. the same issues that almost always plague internet polls); 900 is more than large enough for a representative sample, if I remember college statistics correctly.

[Bacris]

As I posted in the Legalities forum, I await the revised GSL with anticipation.

I appreciate that Scott and Linae are working hard to make this license worthwhile and still have hope that Dreamscarred Press can jump in with both feet on the GSL, rather than foregoing 4E entirely or consulting a lawyer and "going copyright"... even if I do have to wait until 2010 for "official" 4E psionic support

[Arnwyn]

Originally Posted by Ourph

But the behavior of some of the Paizo fans and contributors both here and at the Paizo boards really soured me to the game and even motivated me to reconsider my stance on 4e
I count that as 4 lost Pathfinder sales because people associated with Pathfinder chose the low road.

Then I wonder why you purchased 4e, from WotC, considering the behavior on their boards (i.e. "people associated with" WotC, using your words).

A rather interesting position of yours.

[Charwoman Gene]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Eriks choice of words were... poor, but let's be "better" than that.

My apologies for downgrading the level of commentary. I know that isn't cool.

[Caliber]

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

Then I wonder why you purchased 4e, from WotC, considering the behavior on their boards (i.e. "people associated with" WotC, using your words).

A rather interesting position of yours.

Completely anecdotal, but in my experience far more venom dripped from the fangs of those sticking with 3.5/PF. I know many disagree with me, and offer this up only as an answer to your question. Please don't take it as offense, just an observation I've made.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Charwoman Gene

No, that's a deformed mongoloid stillbirth of a company and game.

Easy tiger... I may be a 4e supporter, but Paizo has had my money for a long time because of the quality of the products they produce. I am not a fan of Pathfinder RPG (yet), but I am a fan of the APs and the (formerly Gamemastery) adventures.

[Wicht]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

But jeeeeeeez. Isn't there ENOUGH 3.x material out there already?

No.

Many RPG purchases are made with the knowledge that the material will never be used in a game. A good bit of the market, at one time or another, has bought rpg books simply to read them for enjoyment and maybe mine them for ideas.

Therefore, for people like me who have little or no interest at this point in 4e, having more 3.x books published is a great thing.

[Darrin Drader]

Originally Posted by Wicht

No.

Many RPG purchases are made with the knowledge that the material will never be used in a game. A good bit of the market, at one time or another, has bought rpg books simply to read them for enjoyment and maybe mine them for ideas.

Therefore, for people like me who have little or no interest at this point in 4e, having more 3.x books published is a great thing.

As a DM, I've found myself using little bits of things published here and there years after I bought the book and put it away. With support of some kind, the diehards of that system will continue to have a fresh supply of new stuff. Without support of any kind, the diehards just have to do without or make it up themselves. Given the modular nature of D&D, it's not that difficult for someone to come up with stuff on their own, but there is something to be said for having it run through a professional editing and development process to make sure that the stuff is balanced and well-conceived, and to have it laid out nicely on the page along with a little bit of art.

Every time I manage to convince myself that I own enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life, there's always that one product that comes along and makes me realize what a silly notion that is.