4e / GSL WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL and SRD

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by evilref

I get that you like to criticise WotC but given you have no idea,

You probably want to back off from that aggressive stance, telling other folks what they like to do, and what they do and don't know.

Everybody: Address the content, not the poster personally, please.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by GVDammerung

But let's wait and see just what changes get made:

1) At will termination clause?
2) Absolute termination of content when termination occurs?
3) Can't use OGL and GSL?

Let's wait and see.

You hit three of the nails right on the head. Without changes in these things (though not limited to these), they might as well not even bother, IMO. If this turns out to be yet another non-starter of a license and all it really accomplishes is getting 3PPs to keep their traps shut through Marktober 1st (Yes, I wrote "Mark"tober), more than a few of us will not be amused.

[El Mahdi]

I'd like to add my thanks to LurkingLidda and The Rouse also (however, I still think ya'll screwed up on the PDF prices).

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

One can only wonder though if they've already soured the pot by first delaying and then putting out the initial -horrible- GSL? Whatever this ends up being, it might be too little, far too late.

I really don't think that would be an issue to most companies. For most of the bigger-name d20 companies, business is business, and if the terms of the new GSL are amenable, then I can see every one of them using it sometime in the future (if not the near future, due to their current schedules).

[gleeful speculation and rumor-mongering]

And speculate as you like if it might be a late attempt to head off OGL alternatives to 4e, especially if sales thus far for 4e have been good but not up to what Hasbro expected given the investment in the edition change and its associated digital products.

[/gleeful speculation and rumor-mongering]

That, on the other hand, I could see, because the fan community holds grudges far longer than publishers do; the goodwill may already be spent, and an OGL challenge to the GSL, or EVEN MESSIER, a copyright law-based challenge to the GSL, might gain ground.

In either case, I look forward to an amended GSL. Hopefully, 3PP's will find it palatable enough to use, and we'll see some high-quality companies starting to enter the running. I like a lot of WotC's product, but let's face it, a LOT of good talent has left those training grounds into other companies, people who could add some seriously good material to 4E.

[Wayside]

Edited per Umbran's post. Waste of a de-lurk.

[Gundark]

Originally Posted by Darrin Drader

So either (A) The GSL has been a major PR blunder, (B) 4th edition isn't doing as well as they would lead us to believe and they're trying to create more sales by making is friendlier to 3PPs who will help drive sales by tying their own products to it, or (C) Both.

I don't know your history, I know that you used to work for WotC. Did they burn you or something (I know I myself have been negative to former employers when the job ended badly) ? I ask as I see negative overtones in serveral of your posts regarding positive news about 4e/WotC. Not an attack by any means, I'm honestly curious.

[Zaukrie]

Thanks to Lidda and Scott. Wish I could be at Gen Con to thank you both personally. Here's hoping we see great products from Necromancer and others soon....

[Darrin Drader]

Originally Posted by Gundark

I don't know your history, I know that you used to work for WotC. Did they burn you or something (I know I myself have been negative to former employers when the job ended badly) ? I ask as I see negative overtones in serveral of your posts regarding positive news about 4e/WotC. Not an attack by any means, I'm honestly curious.

Burn me? No, I left on my own terms when the company was clearly going in a direction that I disagreed with. They've burned many people far worse than they ever burned me. It's more along the lines of being sorely disappointed seeing the type of company they were and comparing it to the company they have become. In my opinion, WotC's potential has been squandered.

On another point, I know some of the thinking that went into 4E. I was opposed to it when I heard it, on a purely conceptual basis, and now that it has been realized I find myself disappointed. Don't ask for specifics because they aren't forthcoming.

[tenkar]

Originally Posted by Henry

... or EVEN MESSIER, a copyright law-based challenge to the GSL, might gain ground.

Henry, I think that hits the nail on the head. If going copyright is more appealing to publishers then using the GSL then the GSL serves no purpose. The GSL was supposed to put some restrictions on the use of WotC's IP, but by being too restrictive it has prevented some publishers from supporting 4e and encouraged others to go 4e without the use of the GSL.

Hold something to tightly and it can slip through your fingers... it might be that WotC's lawyers are seeing that... or at least Scott and Linae have convinced some of the bean counters that the current GSL situation isn't the most profitable one in the long run for WotC

[Delta]

(a) So this is like a rewind to November 2007. Here we go all over again. Personally I'd recommend that any 3PP's not delay their publishing plans (again) in anticipation of this "very soon" GSL plan.

(b) The link in the OP (D&D welcome page) doesn't have any info on this topic at the moment.

[darjr]

Originally Posted by Delta

(b) The link in the OP (D&D welcome page) doesn't have any info on this topic at the moment.

Scroll down a bit. It is in the news section. Here is a direct link to the specific article. I think it is in the other thread about this topic.

[carmachu]

Originally Posted by Orcus

GVD-

Man, you are so negative.

This is not a "backtracking" or a "leverage" situation. How about--some good people (Scott and Linae) finally got listened to when it became apparent that the GSL was not doing what it was supposed to be doing.

I guess you are entitled to your own opinion of what to expect as to whether the changes will be "cosmetic" and "lipstick on a pig." I, on the other hand, expect them to be substantial. In fact, I am very hopeful that all the issues I have with the GSL will be addressed and Necro will be able to announce 4E support. That is my hope anyway. I guess we will see who is right. (smart money is on me)

Clark

You can expect alot, but frankly it was amusing to se you as the biggest cheerleader for 4e and then watch the GSL hit the scene.

You cant blame folks for being skeptical, seeing the huge delay in the GSL release and then how horrible it is.

Could be better. Could also get revised to be worse. Only time will tell.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

The argument that "ENWorld is such a small percentage of WoTC customer base that they do not listen to us", has been undeniably refuted. Without being to melodramatic...

Yes, do avoid being too melodramatic, because there's a risk of losing perspective. Whatever may have been said here, the posters of EN World are a small percentage of the customer base. Whatever was said in the statement, I strongly suspect the opinions of colleagues (like Necromancer Games) had a whole lot more to do with this than those of us who only play and consume.

[Lord Xtheth]

I am trying to write up a campaign I ran and would love to be able to publish it for 4E, and hopefully the new GSL will give me a little bit more leg room when it comes to what I can and can't put in my adventure.

I'm fairly certain that this campaign will help me break out of "doing what jobs I can to survive" and bust into "doing what I love for money" and I sure that a more open and friendly GSL will help me greatly.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by lurkinglidda

Is "opener" a word?

It is now.

This is good news. Looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.

[JoeGKushner]

Clark, not only do I hope you're right, I hope you're right in a big way and not only will we see the new stuff you've got planned, but that it'll allowe conversions of older material. Tome of Horrors for the win!

Originally Posted by Orcus

GVD-

Man, you are so negative.

This is not a "backtracking" or a "leverage" situation. How about--some good people (Scott and Linae) finally got listened to when it became apparent that the GSL was not doing what it was supposed to be doing.

I guess you are entitled to your own opinion of what to expect as to whether the changes will be "cosmetic" and "lipstick on a pig." I, on the other hand, expect them to be substantial. In fact, I am very hopeful that all the issues I have with the GSL will be addressed and Necro will be able to announce 4E support. That is my hope anyway. I guess we will see who is right. (smart money is on me)

Clark

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by lurkinglidda

Is "opener" a word?

"Opener" is a perfectly cromulent word.

[Carnivorous_Bean]

It seems to me that without being good, bad, or whatever, WotC chooses its actions as a company, and that therefore, every major decision is made with one goal in mind: to make more money.

Scott Rouse may be a champion for the 'gamer community' -- or he may be the 'good cop' who is the friendly, understanding, approachable person who makes the gamers feel better about the company. Regardless, he's got to pay his bills, also -- he needs his salary -- so he's not going to be standing there, pawing the ground in steely-eyed defiance, cowing the management into doing what's 'best for the gaming community.' The utmost he's going to do is find a way to persuade them that they'll make more money with a more open GSL.

So, that suggests a few quite logical scenarios to explain why making the GSL more open would give WotC greater profits:

1. 4e is successful, but an analysis of 3e's profits revealed that 3rd party support will make the success spike even higher, and bring in even more money than they're already making.

2. 4e isn't too successful, and they think -- again based on concrete data -- that an open GSL will boost sales and 'revive' their profits.

3. They're afraid of negative reaction causing a 'profit speedbump' in the future, based on a huge amount of complaining e-mails from customers. So they're stamping out the problem while it's still tiny.

4. Anything else that makes an open GSL beneficial to the bottom line of WotC.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Lord Xtheth

I'm fairly certain that this campaign will help me break out of "doing what jobs I can to survive" and bust into "doing what I love for money" and I sure that a more open and friendly GSL will help me greatly.

Not to sound too cynical, but have you spoken with people like Ari Marmel (Mouseferatu) and Phil Reed (Phil_Reed) yet? They're full-time and quite successful freelancers, and have some really good insights into getting into the field. Their advice might or might not be disparaging to you, but I highly recommend talking to them, and Clark Peterson (Orcus), if you haven't done so.

[Jack Colby]

Hopefully they are taking Clark's advice. I want 4e stuff from Necromancer!

Although I'm starting to feel like the launch of 4e was some kind of Beta test (or at least premature) at this point. So many revisions and clarifications... not to mention unfinished online aspects. Disappointing. I'm optimistic they will improve, however.