General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I thought it was because Weis & Hickman threw a hissy fit because Soth "their character", and then killed him so that nobody could use him anymore.
Soth was removed from Ravenloft because of the fact that Dragonlance was licensed to MWP and Ravenloft to Arthaus/WW. I've heard that the reason Soth was killed was because Hickman in particular was annoyed with the whole moving him from DL to RL thing, but I've never seen any real evidence to back it up.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
I don't honestly have high hopes for this. This setting seems the least suited for 4E. ...
Ravenloft is, like, the original PoL setting. It's uniquely suited to 4E.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irda Ranger
Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
I'm pretty sure this never happened, and that nerdrage is simply making you hallucinate. Faerun isn't a part of the default setting. They don't share a history, pantheon, or planet (unless you've decided to overlay PoL on top of FR). Forgotten Realms is only "core" to the extent that elements (mechanical elements especially) can be translated to other worlds and settings. Do you believe this is why FR was changed? Because FR needed it.
Ravenloft is perfect for 4E, and very little needs to be changed here at all.
Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in Races & Classes.
4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.
Ironically, I do recognize that Wizards really screwing up Ravenloft would be the best way to actually get me in character for playing in Ravenloft (because my nightmares would be realized).
Take a "misusing the stupid emo/goth phrase, whatever that is" point.
__________________ C4bal: We´re watching your dicerolls.
X-Zine - the German review & news site for RPGs / books / comics / music / CCG / DVDs and much much more
Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in Races & Classes.
4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.
Don't be too worried, it is not like 4E is aimed at the video game generation or anything like that.
I love this game. In fact, I love it so much that I was already planning to use it's basic plot in order to run a sequel to the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft mini-campaign I'm running in 4e. After defeating and killing Strahd, the players will be forced to endure a horrible curse, or resurrect him and defeat him for good.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
I have never known Margaret and Tracy to throw a "hissy fit" about anything, just for the record.
For MWP's Dragonlance products, we just assumed he was never there. It's not explicitly stated, but then again, Ravenloft isn't mentioned either.
And you came late to the party to be so bitter, Terry.
Don't confuse the length of time I had access to high speed internet (which facilitates wasting time on forums) with the length of time following the setting. I've been growing increasingly bitter since Dragons of Summer Flame. Though, I've grown increasingly at peace since deciding to ignore the Chaos War and everything after it. Still I've been commenting on dragonlance-related forums for 8 years now, almost a quarter of my life.
I'll acknowledge that I don't know this for sure, but it sure seems to match the way the dragonlance brand was handled and the personalities of the people who managed and worked on that brand. That's after all why Paladine and Takhisis were killed off right? To force the editor(s) and brand managers to stop writing novels where Takhisis tries to enter a portal to Krynn?
Getting back to Soth, he both left Ravenloft and was killed off before Sovereign Press knew they were getting the license for dragonlance, if memory serves me correctly.
Yeah Van Richten was cool
Very disgusted with way he, Khelben Blackstaff and Halaster got killed off, grr!!!
Never mind the Sorceror Kings in Dark Sun, double grr!!!!
I'm pretty sure this never happened, and that nerdrage is simply making you hallucinate.
I must have hallucinated Eladrin, the Feywild and Dragonborn being added to the setting. I must has hallucinated the Demiplane of Shadow being renamed the Shadowfell and the Abyss falling into the Elemental Planes Chaos.
You may think these were good changes, but that's a subjective opinion. The fact is that the setting was changed to match the 4E Core. Personally I did not like some of these changes. That's all I'm saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhook
Ravenloft is perfect for 4E, and very little needs to be changed here at all.
I agree. And my stated concern was that they will change it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Little Raven
"Emo/goth" seems to be code for "I don't like this."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief
Take a "misusing the stupid emo/goth phrase, whatever that is" point.
It's neither a code nor a misuse if you mean what you say and don't use the phrase when it doesn't apply.
"emo" is a genre of music I am familiar with. "goths" self identify as such, and I am as free as anyone to form an opinion about them (yes, I'm judgmental like that). I'm not here to say whether it's good or bad (or whether anything merely fashionable even can be good or bad), but it's not my scene and it seemed obvious to me that the Tiefling entry in R&C and the continued inclusion of the Shadar-kai was either pandering to these "demographics" by WotC to pump sales or included out of genuine interest by certain WotC staffers. Either way, "not my thing."
But feel free to take back your not-so-subtle accusations that I'm using a "code" or "misusing" terms. These are terms with generally accepted meanings, and I called them as I saw them.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
I must have hallucinated Eladrin, the Feywild and Dragonborn being added to the setting. I must has hallucinated the Demiplane of Shadow being renamed the Shadowfell and the Abyss falling into the Elemental Planes Chaos.
The Feywild, Shadowfell, and Elemental Chaos were actually the new FR cosmology they devised, and they liked it so much that they moved it to the core implied setting. And the Abyss was pushed.
And on "emo" and "goth".... Emo, as a descriptor for a music genre, is so vague as to be effectively worthless, since you have bands that range in style from Fugazi to Sunny Day Real Estate. The goth subculture, on the other hand, has little to nothing in common with the tiefling writeup, aside from a focus on nonconformity.
Unless the tiefling writeup has scads of information about aesthetics, music, and art that matches those subcultures, any claim of a direct connection is weak at best.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
Last edited by The Little Raven; 11th September 2008 at 08:57 PM..
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
Again, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to put every single country from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting into the 4e default world. I'm certain that all they will do is make Castle Ravenloft a locale in the 4e world. This is similar to what they did with Sigil - they didn't bring in every aspect of Planescape into the 4e cosmology, just that one (really cool) piece.
It'll be like reprinting the original module for 4e. We'll probably get the map of Castle Ravenloft in Dungeon and information about Barovia, Strahd, and all the rest in Dragon. Barovia will become a piece of PoLand, like Arkhosia, Nerath, or Bael Turath. It'll be closely tied with the Shadowfell. We won't see a psuedo-French nation, we won't see Darkon, and we won't see many other things from the RCS (at least, not yet).
I've never quite understood the hate leveled at tieflings. I like them personally, and I am as far away from emo and goth as you can be. Likewise, my friends and acquaintances who are goths tend to dislike them, so I'd say that if WotC included them to pander to that crowd, they didn't do the best job of it. More likely Tieflings, like Dragonborn, were included to have a "monster race" among the core. People like that sort of thing. Supposedly, anyway.
Oh yes, and 4e Ravenloft. Yay! Not generally my cup o' tea, but plenty of lovely ideas to steal.
Last edited by GoodKingJayIII; 11th September 2008 at 09:51 PM..
I've never quite understood the hate leveled at tieflings. I like them personally, and I am as far away from emo and goth as you can be. Likewise, my friends and acquaintances who are goths tend to dislike them, so I'd say that if WotC included them to pander to that crowd, they didn't do the best job of it. More likely Tieflings, like Dragonborn, were included to have a "monster race" among the core. People like that sort of thing. Supposedly, anyway.
Oh yes, and 4e Ravenloft. Yay! Not generally my cup o' tea, but plenty of lovely ideas to steal.
I personally feel that as they are presenting them now, not the original Planescape presentation, that there is a bit of a D'rizztification going on with them. I see it and don't at the same time. I see more of a Draenei analog than a goth/emo think but that's just me. Also I've never really liked "monster" races. These are fantasy worlds and good and evil are tangible forces here. There's no reason to allow real world morality there. All orcs are evil, all lamasu are good, some races are free to choose. Therefore I generally used the now much-aligned Tolkein line-up. I am trying to piece the Tieflings and Dragonborn into a new campaign world, so I'm not stuck on my preconceptions.
As to Ravenloft, it was always one of my favorite worlds, and it scares me whenever they revamp or fix something that I love; it rarely improves it.
Again, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to put every single country from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting into the 4e default world. I'm certain that all they will do is make Castle Ravenloft a locale in the 4e world.
You may be right, but it'd be a bummer. And as for the Domains of Dread, I guess we'll leave off the 's' for 'Savings.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Moyer
Barovia will become a piece of PoLand
I had to read that three times before I could grok why you thought Barovia was in the bit based on Poland. I'm not-smart like that occasionally.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
I actually think the only things they'll bring into core are Castle Ravenloft, Strahd, Van Richten, Barovia, and a few other elements. Barovia will be a region in PoLand, like the Nentir Vale. The entirety of the Ravenloft Campaign Setting probably won't be put into core.
This is my guess as well. Castle Ravenloft, like Castle Greyhawk, is now fair game for every setting, and I bet we see both as super-modules before too long.
That said, it's certainly possible to go much more ambitious than Expedition/Ravenloft and include lots of the other good stuff from other domains, like Azalin.
This is my guess as well. Castle Ravenloft, like Castle Greyhawk, is now fair game for every setting, and I bet we see both as super-modules before too long.
That said, it's certainly possible to go much more ambitious than Expedition/Ravenloft and include lots of the other good stuff from other domains, like Azalin.
It's also possible that they make "Domains of Dread" a regular column in Dragon, and over time tackle more and more of the setting.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
I actually think the only things they'll bring into core are Castle Ravenloft, Strahd, Van Richten, Barovia, and a few other elements. Barovia will be a region in PoLand, like the Nentir Vale. The entirety of the Ravenloft Campaign Setting probably won't be put into core.
DING DING DING DING DING.
Someone's tiefling warlock and someone's dragonborn paladin and someone's eladrin ninjarogue will be able to tackle the castle and kill Strahd.
For most people, this will be a good thing.
For some purists who don't like the idea of monsterous dealers with the devil running around in Barovia's "A little like Transylvania!" town, it will cause momentary outrage.
I REALY REALY hope Ravenloft gets its own setting book again. I almost missed it for 3rd ed. I found the books at a garage sale of all places and scooped them up faster than time itself would allow.
I want to see/play/DM ravenloft in 4th so much I almost considered doing the work myself converting the old material (Including Soth). But Laziness prevailed! Now that they're hinting that they're doing SOMTHING with the setting, I'll just wait and see what they do.
Here's hoping they realize Ravenloft will make them money, and they'll publish it!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
Ravenloft is, like, the original PoL setting. It's uniquely suited to 4E.
Don't be too worried, it is not like 4E is aimed at the video game generation or anything like that. 
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
