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What's the point of having different campaign settings then if they're all just the same races, classes and cultures? Different maps?
True this....
2nd Ed. was much better at creating viable, different campaign settings than 3E was...in some ways. Or, I guess I should explain this a little better.
There's nothing wrong with limiting choice of race or class in particular settings, if it helps to maintain the "feel" of the setting. Not all races fit all games. I wouldn't be a huge fan of having tieflings and dragonborn in Ravenloft. Races like elves, dwarves, and halflings are inhuman enough, and they can be in dangerous situations if they walk into the wrong bar in Ravenloft. And they don't have the ability to breath fire or anything like that....so they're less of a threat than some of the other monstrous races are.
Now, I could see that they might have a *domain* where a town of dragonborn was pulled into the mists. So you've got dragonborn in the setting. And they can walk around without being killed on sight....in that domain. But go to Barovia or Falkovnia or Sithicus or one of the others, and it's happy hour for the guys with torches and pitchforks.
As for making DoD part of the core, its easy to do. When I did my "Conglomerate World", where I have every setting I like that isn't its own full world, I put this HUGE black cloud bank down in the southwest corner between the continents of Airhde and the continent of Cascandia. Guess what that huge cloud bank encloses? Yep, you guessed it, the Domains of Dread. Works fine. I even threw in the Island of King Kong nearby just for the fun of it, since Necromancer Games did such a nice 3E version of it.
In what module did Necromancer do King Kong's island? I didn't know they had....
Add my voice to the ones calling for a return of Van Richten. There was a great feel to that material (and to all of Ravenloft, really) that I really hope they can recapture. Since we're on a musical subtheme within this set, It would be as disappointing as a legendary band returning from retirement and the world finding them much diminished (The Police, I'm looking at you).
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Originally Posted by ProtoClone
As for Azalin, I really hope he makes it.
This too. I can't see them not keeping Azalin, though. He's iconic of Ravenloft. Also, we saw a lot of love go into the 3.5E Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, so I'm hoping that can be pulled off again.
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Originally Posted by Mercule
The insipid multiculturalism in 4e is possibly the most annoying aspect of the PoL,
D&D fantasy has always been 'insipidly multicultural'. In fact, most heroic fantasy leans in that direction regardless.
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCirno
"Emo" has changed a lot. The current look of emo is pretty far detatched from what it used to be. You can thank the formulaic drivel of Dashboard for that.
Actually, considering his usage of open tunings and odd chordings, Chris Carabba is a leagues better songwriter than his contemporaries in say, My Chemical Romance. I'm still not a fan, but you have to a musician credit where credit is due.
Still, this tripe is a far cry from Sunny Day Real Estate. But I digress. Bring on the Demiplane of Dread!
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
Last edited by Kishin; 14th September 2008 at 10:27 AM..
Ravenloft doesn't play that way. It is, for the most part, a place where there's just progressively darker shades of grey that lead to black. Heroes who look inhuman and/or dark aren't going to be treated as heroes, regardless of what they do, by the local populace.
Yup, the "shades of grey" aspect is very important (IMO) to Ravenloft; it's a setting where the Darklords aren't MEANT to be defeated, they're meant to be twisted reflections of the characters and what they could become once they begin to embrace the Dark Powers.
That, again, seems to be in direct conflict to the 4E philosophy.
On the other hand, I dare say some people will look at the arguments in this thread regarding "classic" Ravenloft -- that it's a pretty darn hard place to adventure -- and go "Okay, well, then, if they're throwing all that out... sounds like it'll be more fun." As great and atmospheric as Ravenloft is, there are elements about it that basically swat you on the nose for adventuring; some people won't miss that.
Sorry, you gotta expect it to happen. Hey, my initial Ravenloft experience was one of those AD&D choose your own adventure books -- that thing went straight from entering Barovia to taking your paladin and hunting down the Count with your sunsword and rod of lordly might. There's room for all kinds of stories in the setting, even those with pretty drastically different themes.
On the other hand, I dare say some people will look at the arguments in this thread regarding "classic" Ravenloft -- that it's a pretty darn hard place to adventure -- and go "Okay, well, then, if they're throwing all that out... sounds like it'll be more fun." As great and atmospheric as Ravenloft is, there are elements about it that basically swat you on the nose for adventuring; some people won't miss that.
<snip>
There's room for all kinds of stories in the setting, even those with pretty drastically different themes.
This is where we get to the "Making Ravenloft 4e" vs "Inserting some Ravenloft into 4e".
If you're going to conceptualize the Domains of Dread into a setting, it needs to maintain some distinctiveness from a traditional setting. If you're going to make a "horror" setting, then you have to avoid watering it down so much that it's just another PoL setting. It may be a delicate balance, when removing a players control over his character, between evoking feelings of horror vs evoking anger, but that's what "how to run" articles are for.
If you simply wash it out to the point that the player won't lose control, simply to avoid the potential for angering them, it's pointless.
Ravenloft works on the other level too, interjecting horror themes into the standard PoL without having to use the full mechanics that set Domains of Dread apart. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was more about the original adventure than it was about the campaign setting, and that's cool in it's own way. This would fit in better with 4e's design philosophy, IMO, and allow for them to set up the situations better.
Just, for the love of god, don't label something as "the new Ravenloft campaign setting" and then give some washed out "how to kill a darklord" stuff that just pisses off fans of the original setting.
(For Dragon/ Dungeon, I think it could work well with a setup like "Darklords", Dragon highlights a specific darklord and his domain. Then Dungeon has an adventure in that setting.)
__________________ Why should I listen to you?
You're just a pigment of my imagination.
Like bleen or gurple.
--8Bit Fighter
Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.
I am just amazed at all the whining about how WotC will destroy Ravenloft to be a bit premature.
I know not everyone in the thread is doing that, but it is overwhelming.
Sigh, welcome to the internets, I know.
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
In FR, at least, they showed that they didn't have the nerve to do so, even refusing to allow the Elven races of Toril to keep their names
They still have their cultural and cosmetic differences, but I for one am happy to see the mechanical differences between a dozen different types of elves erased.
Yup, the "shades of grey" aspect is very important (IMO) to Ravenloft; it's a setting where the Darklords aren't MEANT to be defeated, they're meant to be twisted reflections of the characters and what they could become once they begin to embrace the Dark Powers.
That, again, seems to be in direct conflict to the 4E philosophy.
Which makes Ravenloft a fun place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Much like Midnight, a setting where you cannot win, just merely do some good before you die is fun for a while, but eventually unsatisfying to me.
Much more the point: Ravenloft as a setting required a certain amount of vulnerability. 2e Ravenloft did this in three ways: 1.) making everything that wasn't mundane shunned and feared (and making a great deal of the mundane suspicious as well). 2.) Attacking a PCs weaknesses (fear, horror, madness, curses) and 3.) changing, corrupting, or outright removing PC options and powers that would otherwise give them a position of strength (divination, druids, paladins, spell-changing, familiars!)
This all added up to a setting where the PCs were constantly behind the 8-ball; the simple comforts of safe haven, reliable magic, etc. It basically said "I'm changing the rules so your screwed. If at anytime you think not screwed, you secretly are". Unfortunately, this runs smack dab against the design philosophies of third (options not restrictions) and fourth (all classes should be viable/useful). This is why Arhaus's 3e Ravenloft lacked the same feel as 2e's Domains of Dread; they tried to apply a 3e mindset to Ravenloft and allow more options (some with a cost) that made Ravenloft less "gothic horror hodgepodge" and more "fantasy seen through a darkened lens".
Any attempt to recapture the feel of 2e Ravenloft, IMHO, is doomed to fail unless your willing to gut and rebuild the game around it. WotC has pressed a position of "PCs are Heroes, beyond mortal men" that is fine for fantasy but sucks for gothic horror. WotC would be wiser to lean on the Ravenloft that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft used; part of a larger world where heroes come from, but a dark and dangerous corner of it steeped in Gothic flavor, but ultimately closer to D&D with vampires than a different setting.
Which, unless WotC suprises me, is what they are going to so.
Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.
I am just amazed at all the whining about how WotC will destroy Ravenloft to be a bit premature.
I know not everyone in the thread is doing that, but it is overwhelming.
Sigh, welcome to the internets, I know.
Because judging something based entirely on their own previous works is bad now? Nobody here has ZERO INFORMATION regarding this. We have TONS of information. We know lots about the default setting. We know how Wizards handled the changes in Forgotten Realms. We know what themes they enjoy putting into their 4e settings. We have a basic idea of how and what they do when developing or changing settings.
We're not running around blind just because we harbor distrust.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.
You crazy rebel, you.
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Originally Posted by Banshee16
It's Dracula....not Hellboy..
If someone happens to like that, fine. I just wish they would give it a new name, rather taking a much-loved setting, and turning it into something very, very different.
The old name will sell better, so to speak. If they tried something new that was moderately close to the old Ravenloft, the nerdrage would build up so high that meteors would be summoned down from the heavens and rain hot fire down upon the WotC offices until there was nothing left but a giant smoking crater.
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Originally Posted by TheSleepyKing
Given that Ravenloft is only appearing in Dragon for now, however, they might be willing to do so. Sales aren't going to be an issue for them, so hopefully they'll abandon some of the extreme caution they've demonstrated with 4e publishing so far and go all-in with Ravenloft as a setting of gothic horror. We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.
Ravenloft co-opted Soth, and when Weis/Hickman made another DL novel, they ignored Ravenloft entirely, keeping Soth always/forever in DL.
TSR then came up with a RL excuse for it, to cover the settings.
This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.
* Margaret and Tracy were not on great terms with TSR when the decision was made to move Soth to Ravenloft. They were offered the chance to write the novel, review the manuscript, etc. (I was the Ravenloft fiction line editor at the time and made the call to Margaret.) They refused. Not a surprise. They were not even writing Dragonlance books for the company at the time.
* It was not my decision to move Soth from Krynn to Ravenloft; the decision had been made before I was assigned the Ravenloft book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance.
* I reluctantly ended up writing that first Soth Ravenloft novel because, in large part, the other potential writers were proposing substantial changes to Soth's character. My premise for Soth's stay in Ravenloft--as shown in the two novels I wrote--was that he would begin his imprisonment tormented by imperfect versions of his story. He would eventually be all but paralyzed by these false tales. Then, when he reclaimed his true story--basically, got back to where he was when he entered the Mists--he would leave the Dark Domains and return to Krynn. Since it's never revealed how the Dark Powers work, it's unclear if he escaped, was taught a lesson, or simply found a pre-existing doorway out. On a storytelling level, I built the mechanism for that escape into the first novel, since I was assuming Soth would eventually be sprung. So that departure was not an excuse TSR or WotC cobbled together; it was the plan from the start, at least as far as I and several others were concerned. If WotC had not brought me back to write Spectre, it could have played out very differently. This was, however, a case where the original plan played out largely as envisioned.
* Time moves differently on Krynn and in Ravenloft, so Soth could have spent 100 years in the Dark Domains and been gone from Krynn 10 seconds or 10 minutes or 10 years. There is no reason, in terms of continuity, that the Ravenloft books can't fit with the published Dragonlance material. At the same time, the DL material need not actively support the Ravenloft "interlude" for Soth, since it occurred in such a way that his absence need not be explained away. To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.
* It is neither my call, nor Margaret and Tracy's, on whether Soth ever went to Ravenloft. The last official word I had from WotC was that the two Sithicus novels were considered official. If WotC staffers change their mind on that, we could have a different ruling. Hasbro owns the character and all the books. Last I heard, the Ravenloft novels were official. WotC and Hasbro recently approved the publication of a comic book adaptation of the Soth-in-Ravenloft story "The Rigor of the Game" in Worlds of Dungeons & Dragons issue #3, so it seems they're still canon. Tomorrow, someone from WotC could post here and say that's changed and they're no longer official continuity. Two years from now, someone else could take over in Renton and rule them canon again.
To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.
Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked.
James, thank you very much for your insight on the Soth issue. That sort of insider view really does clear up a lot of the speculation and perpetual internet rumor mill on the topic, and it's really cool to here about what went into the creative process regarding Soth from your end with your novels, trying to balance it with considerations from two settings' perspectives.
Awesome.
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked.
Thanks, Cam. I worked hard to make certain Soth stayed consistent with the character as portrayed by Margaret and Tracy. And they got him back as they had left him.
I certainly understand why any writers might be annoyed or disappointed that TSR/WotC/Hasbro decided to use characters or setting elements they created in a way they had not intended. That loss of control is a big downside to shared world contracts.
This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing Soth In Ravenloft, or the work done on him there. I had left the game before his novels came out, but overall liked all the RL stuff from when I read it.
Quote:
* It was not my decision to move Soth to Krynn; the decision had been made before I was assigned the book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance.
Definitely, and thanks for the post. What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.
__________________ Why should I listen to you?
You're just a pigment of my imagination.
Like bleen or gurple.
--8Bit Fighter
What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.
Let's be clear here: Margaret and Tracy were allowed to write Soth back into Krynn. If Wizards did not want it to happen and the authors would not cooperate by changing the text, the editors in the book department would have simply changed it for them. The owner of the intellectual property has final say here, not the writers. That's part of the standard WotC work-for-hire contract.
A smart publisher/IP owner works with the creators rather than dictating to them, allows for creative latitude rather than micromanaging content, but the contract sets up a specific balance of power that does not favor the writers.
As I understand it, Margaret and Tracy said they wanted to use the character of Soth again in their books. I was not part of that discussion, so I don't know how that conversation played out. What I can relate from firsthand experience is what happened next: Wizards mulled over the decision and brought in other people to discuss the matter, from both the Dragonlance and Ravenloft teams, both games and fiction. The move was only approved for the Dragonlance books after both teams were satisfied. Margaret and Tracy got what they wanted, but only because Wizards allowed that to happen.
I was not working for Wizards at the time; they asked me if I wanted to write the Ravenloft novel that explained Soth's move back to Krynn. I was enthusiastic about the idea, since I had built the escape route into the first book and was hoping Soth would make it back to Krynn when Margaret and Tracy wanted to use him. But I had some conditions about participating--I wanted the plot, overall, to play out a certain way. Wizards liked what I wanted to do, so that was allowed to go forward in Spectre of the Black Rose.
Authors writing novels for TSR and Wizards have had more or less power in determining the direction and content of their books, depending upon the company philosophy at the time, as well as the work style of the people running the book department, the different lines, even editing the individual books. (Right now, with the Realms and Ravenloft and the other settings, we're seeing a top-down approach in action, where the company role in determining content is open and obvious; that may have a different direct impact from project to project, but the overall metaplot is being driven by people inside WotC.) And some authors have more clout than others.
But at the end of the day, unless their contracts specifically deviate from the standard work-for-hire agreement, authors do not make decisions without someone inhouse authorizing them to do so.
I know the "Soth" topic comes up with fair regularity, so it's kind of you to set the record straight (again.) And it's always interesting to get a "Behind-the-scenes" peek into the creative process, and how it interacts with the mundane business-needs of a company.
And, as you state, it's easy to reconcile both the "RL" SOth and the "DL" Soth; the two need not be mutually exclusive for gamers. (Indeed, "When Black Roses Bloom" is in my top 10 list of RL modules, and your two Soth novels were highlights of the fiction line.)
TO keep this on topic; I'll certainly read the Dragon magaine with the RL material before making a final judgement, but, based on all I've seen, heard and read over the last year or so from WotC, I unfortunately don't hold much confidence. (I'm particuarly curious if they intend to use the whole RL setting, or if they're just going to transplant Soth and/or Barovia into the default "PoL" setting, or some sort of hybrid of the two.)
Last edited by ShadowDenizen; 17th September 2008 at 12:30 AM..
The average barovian villager would be making covert hex signs at the entire party and he will call on the lynchmob if he feels he can get away with it.
In his eyes, the Human Paladin, dressed in ornate plate armor with strange runes and signs and carrying a jeweled longsword is just as alien as the Tiefling or the Eladrin in the group.
Also, it doesnt matter that the Cleric claims his magic comes from his deity. If he can do greater miracles than the local parish priest, then its the lynchmob for him.
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Originally Posted by ShadowDenizen
But I see 4E and RL as being antihetical to each other, at least in mood, tone and theme. While 4E professes a "PoL" world, it seems (IMO) to take it's cue from Anime/Warcraft and more modern influences.
...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.
The question is, IMHO, "can you do 4e Ravenloft" and the answer, for me at least, is yes.
Some DMs might want to restrict Ravenloft PCs to be "human-only" or some may not. Its up to you, and you don't have to inyect dragonborn into your village of inbred hicks just because WotC says so.
I would like to have a 4e Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, however. YMMV
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The Janus Gull article has a very Ravenloft feel to it, and could be one way they might be moving with the demiplanes in 4e. COuld actualy work quite nicely.
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