General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.
I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .
On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different. (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)
Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)
Last edited by ShadowDenizen; 17th September 2008 at 11:38 PM..
I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .
On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different. (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)
Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)
Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow. This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified! It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow. This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified! It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"
Pssst! Your Shtick is showing!
__________________ el gobierno confiscará sus pollos
I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel;
If he did, then you wrote something other then what you meant.
My view of what Ravenloft needs will probably anger some fans but here it is anyway.
1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords. Ravenloft adventures have a tendency to turn into a kind of Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are dead scenario with the PCs flitting about impotently in the background while the real drama plays out between NPCs.
An aid to this would be an end to the strict correlation between Domains and Polities, Another would be to offer multiple candidates or backstories and curses for the lords of some domains(this would also increase suspense and DM ownership of their campaigns).
2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror. werewolves and undead aren't especially scary if they're the only things you fight. Wouldn't it be nice for the PCs on learning that a monster is tormenting the village each night, not to immediately start eyeing the townsfolk to see which one of them is secretly the monster?
3> Ravenloft needs less "screw the PCs" and "undead are better than you" mechanics because those mechanics always sucked.
Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?
Thats depressing. I always thought DM's used the undead and other monsters relatively sparingly in order to highten how scary they are. Well, except in the case of wererats. I think the scariest things about them is that they attacked in swarms. So when you kick over their lair, watch out! I also thought Ravenloft DM's created Domain Lords of their own, and rewrote/changed any established Domain Lord to fit their campaign needs. Plus use the Domain Lords as the climax of the campaign, or campaign story arc.
It sure seemed to me to be that way, maybe it was just the Ravenloft DM's who hung out on the same message board I did before it was shut down 3 or 4 years ago.
If that has been the problem I certainly hope WOTC uses this opportunity to teach DM's how to run their Ravenloft campaigns better.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?
Why wouldn't people use the existing domains and lords?
While some were silly, quite a few were really interesting. It'd be silly not to use them just because someone else wrote them, especially since one's playing in a published setting to begin with.
One of the best campaigns I ever ran was a mini-campaign (5 games) set in Ravenloft, that made heavy use of Strahd and his backstory. And the campaign wouldn't have worked any other way, precisely because it did draw on a legend and backstory that all the players already knew.
Sure, not every campaign--not even the majority--should revolve around darklords. And DMs should never be afraid to create their own. But neither is there any good reason not to use them, when it's appropriate to do so.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords.
I think you're wrong here, because I don't think it WAS focused on the domain lords, in general. There were quite a few domains where the Lord wasn't Lord in an obvious way. The interaction with the players varied a lot also.
Quote:
2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror.
I think this and #1 both come from a perception perpetuated by the internet/ others opinions of RL. It's like CoC's "rotating PC" joke.
If you look at any of the adventures, and a lot of the other material, Ravenloft frequently ignored the "a lord can't die" thing, and "no one can escape ravenloft" was meant as a way of stopping players from teleporting out mid adventure. At the end of each published adventure, the group returns to the material world. At the start of each adventure, the team is drawn into the mists.
The idea of setting an entire campaign in RL, IMO, really wasn't strong until later on. The players were always outsiders coming into a situation, for good or ill.
__________________ Why should I listen to you?
You're just a pigment of my imagination.
Like bleen or gurple.
--8Bit Fighter
Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in Races & Classes.
4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.
Ironically, I do recognize that Wizards really screwing up Ravenloft would be the best way to actually get me in character for playing in Ravenloft (because my nightmares would be realized).
Tieflings and Dragonborn welcome to Ravenloft. Bill Slavicsek has said that each setting will be Core in 4e. So 4e will butcher all of TSR/WOTC's old settings.
Mike
__________________ "I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for The One. We die for The One." Marcus, Babylon 5
I am another Ravenloft fan eager to find out whether Ravenloft will make a comeback in 4th Ed. I am of the following mindset:
- Any try to bring it back is good, because if I don't like it, I will ignore it.
- I too think that 4th Ed is less suited for Ravenloft than former Editions. Even if you have no Dragonborn etc. to deal with, a wizards casting Scorching Burst (a 15 ' fireball) all day long does not lend itself to Gothic Horror easily. To take it seriously, you would have to limit classes to the martial classes, because all others routinously display supernatural abilities that should scare the townfolk. In my Ravenloft 4th Ed try, I will tell the players that any display of supernatural power will provoke a lynchmop. So playing a human or elven fighter or ranger is easy. If you want to play a Warlock, Swordmage or Psaladin, you can, but in many battles can't use your powers. Better be able to use a base attack, too. I think that is just necessary for the feel of the setting.
I'll still try to play my Doppelganger Wizard I love so much when it is my turn to be player, and think of ways to be effective without my powerful spells in public.
It's a challenge.
- There are very different concepts what Ravenloft is really about. What was prominent for me was that problems are larger than you and that you need to think outside the box to solve them, you can't just whack them with a stick a lot. 4th Ed is the direct opposite: Challenges are designed mathematically to be usually overcome by the right conventional strategy. Not that that os difficult to change, but it is a different design view and may cause unexpected problems.
So at least a lot of work is necessary to make a credible 4th-Ed-Ravenloft.
However, IF you want to try a 4th-Ed Ravenloft Campaign with existing rules, a few things work in your favour, on the other hand:
- Curses and diseases have become REALLY scary. Unless you happen to have the Endurance skill, you will most probably not heal a disease by yourself, and the only cure then is a ritual that will quite likely kill you. And gets worse the higher your level is (if the disease usually has your level). This rule screams for a campaign where the heroes are in a city that is quarantines because the black death has been starting there. If I was a player in that campaign, I would be REALLY scared. Same goes with Lycanthropes: Before they were dangerous because they had Damage Resistance, now you really fear them for their disease. Because Cuse Disease and remove curse are no longer minor spells.
- The Minion rules mean that a townfolk lynchmop now is a real danger, no matter what your level. Before, you could be reasonable sure that when you are level 10, a few farmers with pitchforks will not be able to hurt you. Now they are, and die much more easily, which faster gets you to the dark side.
__________________ --------------------------------
Question authority.
Don't ask why.
Just do it.
The first Domains of Dread article seemed to fit the Ravenloft feel just fine, IMO. *shrug*
I agree entirely. The new approach, making Domains of Dread pockets within the Shadowfell, works perfectly for me. It allows you to bring back the classic one-adventure trip to "Ravenloft," or you could have your PCs stuck in the Shadowfell as they progress from one Domain to another.
Manual of the Planes is supposed to have a more in-depth writeup on Domains of Dread, so I'm looking forward to that.
Thinking about the problem of integrating the new races into a Ravenloft campaign, I think it could boil down to this: It's not what you are, it's what you do.
Remember, in the old Ravenloft campaigns, there were the Caliban, hulking misfigures brutes born under a curse or a bad star. Those weren't generally burned at the stake at first sight, either. One of the 3rd Ed Ravenloft books includes a caliban travelling Ravenloft (from Rokushima, I think) that hs that head of a tiger. The leap from there to a dragonborn is not all that great. With Eladrin, I see almost no problem at all, seeing that they look like elves, mostly. Tieflings are problematic, but can probably be thrown under the Caliban excuse, too.
The thing is, except for domains with an active inquisition like Tepest, villagers will NOT burn you at first sight if you are malformed. They will distrust you, keep their children from you, order you to go away and so on. It may be hard work and take some heroics to just get them to let you stay in the shack at the edge of town. But my understanding is, mobs form because things happen, not because you are malformed. An Eladrin will not be killed as long as he does not show off his teleportation. A Dragonborn will create a fearful mob with breasthing fire, but not by having scales.
One reason for that is that while it is true that in Ravenloft, evil tends to grow unless kept in check, it is even more true that he who asks for it gets it. There is no thing more dangerous than standing in for what you believe here. Curses are so frequent that every peasant will think twice to kill a gypsy or caliban, lest their curse be transferred to him. Why is so much evil afoot in Ravenloft? Because it is safer for people to try to ignore evil than to make a stand. Burn one wrong victim and the Powers of Ravenloft will give you their evil blessing. People don't tell Strahd's Minions to leave the beggar alone. They don't go out to hunt the monster. Tehy lock and bar their doors instead, unless they feel they have no other option than to fight. Because evil may go away and eat someone else, but it will eat me if I raise my head. Tall poppy syndrome is rampamt in ravenloft. Thus, a tearful story how you stoned that caliban in your home village only to wake up the next day malformed with horns and scales just like him will probably keep the pitchforks off your back as long as you BEHAVE like a human, not a monster.
For that reason, I think it is feasonable to have the new races in Ravenloft. The point is, it will be a hard secretitive life for the new races, and they have to keep their abilities hidden, just as wizards, warlocks, paladins etc. will in most domains.
It may be another question if it is worth playing an Eladrin if you can only teleport in exceptional circumstances, but that is for the player to decide. As a player who loves playing e.g. Doppelgangers, I can tell you that is is sufficient for me to know that I can change my shape to really like my character's race, even if circumstance dictate that I in practice always carry the same face. Many players are drawn to a specific race by their flavor, and it can be rewarding to allow them to play it, even if it is restrictive.
Also keep in mind that Ravenloft can mean very different styles of play. A dragonborn may not fit into a real Gothic Horror story, but then again, the very concept of a hero may not, either. In most Gothic Horror stories I read, there weren't any real heroes: The villans were brought down by fate, by hubris, by their own designs. Like a quote in one of vthe Ravenloft Source books says: Gothic Horror is like a primitoive detective story where Fate, or God, play the rolem of the detective.
The "heroes" were just like spectators, watching in horror as the tragedy plays out.
That's not how most play Ravenloft, so be ready to think what Ravenloft means for you. Gothic Horror? Survival Horror? The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Silent Hill or Resident Evil 4? There are many styles of play possible in Ravenloft. The new Races may be impossible in some and not in others.
__________________ --------------------------------
Question authority.
Don't ask why.
Just do it.
My review for the first article. I'm a long term Ravenloft fan.
Not bad for a start. The story has a cool darklord and a horrible curse for her. But it won’t appeal to all Ravenloft fans:
The new domain of Sunderheart itself is fun, part MotRD (the Poe story for the on going party), part Lankhmar (the undead coming back to visit the city) for feel and ideas.
The domain is the mirror image in Shadowfell of a place that also exist in the prime material world, which is IIRC how WotC wants to treat the new domains of dread. We’ll see how this goes when we have more information on the mechanics of these new domains of dread. As I wrote elsewhere, I just hope WotC doesn’t plunder the classic Ravenloft setting for spare parts in 4e. That some areas of Shadowfell have some traits of RL is extremely cool, but please do keep the classic RL world too (i.e. the RL core and the classic domains).
Sunderheart is high fantasy for a RL domain, which isn’t usually my cup of tea as I prefer classic gothic horrors, but still it’s well made and fun. Anyway, to retrofit it in a classic RL setting without the fiends and other fantasy creatures is relatively easy. There are hags in it, which is fun.
I blinked a few times in surprise when I saw the darklord’s high number of hit points (840!), but I’m not (at all) knowledgeable in 4e so I can’t comment on the mechanics.
There are cool hereditary curses ideas for people whose ancestors lived in the city before it was cursed and Lady Ivania was moved to Sunderheart as a domain of dread.
Of course the « Like other domains of dread, the PCs’ primary goal once there is escape » is a disappointment for RL long time fans, but we can live with it. The fact that getting out doesn’t necessarily involve killing the darklord is a good point. FYI, Ravenloft has proven it can be used as a campaign setting with Ravenloft natives.
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