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Based upon this ENWorld blog entry I'm left wondering some things about sandbox-style gaming that I'd like to ask those DMs who have used it:
1) I've been told adventure writing is an art, but if you are simply following the direction of PCs does it require even more skill to pull off?
2) Does it dramatically increase the preparation time needed? (You may take this question however you feel.)
3) Would you recommend it to new DMs? And why or why not?
Sandbox does not mean you need to write your own adventures. It is more about presenting a world for the PCs and letting them choose where to go. You can say this is White Plume Mountain or this way leads to the Steading of the Hill Giants if you want to. Just let them decide what they are going to do. And it is not hard to alter the plots of most modules and the goals to fit what the PCs do.
It is more work for me at the beginning as I lay the ground work and come up with ideas for where they might go. But once the campaign gets going the PCs start making choices that build on past choices. Unless your PCs are ADD or something I've found that it becomes easier to predict what the PCs will do.
No, I wouldn't. A new DM will have problwems when the Pcs want to goto a place they haven't thought they would.
1) I've been told adventure writing is an art, but if you are simply following the direction of PCs does it require even more skill to pull off?
Not more skill - different skills.
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2) Does it dramatically increase the preparation time needed? (You may take this question however you feel.)
Doing this correctly, in my opinion, takes a whole lot more time communicating with the players, learning what they like and don't like, what they want and don't want. If you lump that into what you call "preparation time", then yes.
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3) Would you recommend it to new DMs? And why or why not?
No, I would not. Every GM, regardless of their plot/adventure design style, ought to develop the base skills of running individual sessions in an entertaining manner first. Your design philosophy won't mean a thing if you don't know how to pace a session, interpret rules well, and generally keep people happy at runtime.
I also think that, in general, we tend to get hung up on terminology and theory a bit much - folks talk as if either you are sandbox style, or you are not, and that equates to you sucking or not. This is, imho, balderdash.
Theory is important to keep in mind when you are considering the design of your game, campaign, and session. But in the end, a really good GM eschews no tool on the basis of theory - the practical matter of showing your friends a good time should be paramount, and the really good GMs will use tools from any theory to get the job done. Do not pigeonhole yourself with terms.
The campaign design articles on the Wizards site are pretty good for laying this stuff out. That series is worth checking out. You can see there where the designer lays out lots of cool ideas that he wants to go with eventually -- then draws back and figures out one solid starting town and dungeon, and focuses on that. The idea being that there's no need to develop too far ahead, since you'll want to see how things play out and what elements of your campaign the players really dig on.
So yeah, writing your own campaign is significantly more work than "one town, one dungeon" -- but that's all you need to start having a good time.
Sandbox style also relies heavily on players who are comfortable/interested in taking the initiative. Early on in my DMing career, I once planned an entire encounter on one player's backstory, not realizing that the player in question had absolutely no personal initiative. We spent the entire session plodding along with little to no action or progress, because the player that I'd counted on to drive the action had no interest in doing so.
Know your players. Know whether they're the kind of players who like to drive the action, or the kind of players who'd rather follow a more pre-set path. This will save you a lot of pain.
__________________ signed Jere, Lord of Pendragon
"Raven dark but beautiful, in a malevolent sort of way;
With eyes that speak of wonders on the other side of Day.
She dances in the shadows where others fear to tread;
But though her touch may kill you, it's her love that you should dread."
Mostly; what Crothian & Umbran said. I do have a point or two to add:
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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw2
1) I've been told adventure writing is an art, but if you are simply following the direction of PCs does it require even more skill to pull off?
As Umbran said, "Different skills." Not more or less. However, one thing no one* mentioned above is player skill. Running in sandbox mode means the players have to raise their game and decide on a course of action (not wait for you to provide one). They need to show initiative and communicate what they want to do to the DM. That requires using some mental muscles on their parts that pre-written adventures don't really develop.
Running in sandbox mode is harder for players. Ultimately I believe it's more fun and more rewarding (that's been my experience, FWIW), but you can't just drop this mode of playing on them without warning. Also, it can be tough sometimes for new players or players who have only experienced pre-written adventures. They have to learn how to play this game too.
My take away is that DMs cannot switch from pre-written to sandbox without the players being fully engaged and on-board. Make sure they understand the benefits of this kind of play and also what is expected of them. More games have collapsed for lack of communication and un-met (unrealistic) expectations than out of any legitimate "bad experiences."
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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw2
2) Does it dramatically increase the preparation time needed? (You may take this question however you feel.)
I think one of the best tools you can have is a series of random generators. Not just encounters, but cities, NPCs, thieves guilds, churches, cults, etc. Have lists of names handy organized by culture/race. That sort of thing. There are lots of resources already out there, plus you can make your own. Collecting all the generators and organizing them so you can find them in-game is some work, but once set up using them is easy. They embody the potential for a lifetime of gaming. It's an up-front cost that pays long dividends.
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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw2
3) Would you recommend it to new DMs? And why or why not?
No. There are several skills needed for DM-ing. Running your sessions in "sandbox mode" is definitely the "no training wheels" version of being a DM. I think it's better and leads to much deeper PC immersion and fun (IMO), but it's definitely a system where you (the DM) are doing a lot of work adventure writers normally do for you (and often, you're doing it in real time while players are watching you). Once you can run a pre-written adventure well you can "graduate" to running sandbox.
*I didn't see Lord Pendragon's post until after I wrote this.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
The slaughter will continue until play improves.
Last edited by Irda Ranger; 14th September 2008 at 11:49 PM..
Reason: Added footnote.
Sandbox style also relies heavily on players who are comfortable/interested in taking the initiative....
Know your players. Know whether they're the kind of players who like to drive the action, or the kind of players who'd rather follow a more pre-set path. This will save you a lot of pain.
Yep, this was what I ran into. I was gung-ho to try a completely sandbox campaign, set in the Wilderlands. You know, random rumors and adventure seeds scattered here and there. Random encounter tables. And, the keyed Wilderlands hexes, of course.
I found out pretty quickly, though, that my players (who are mostly casual gamers to one degree or another) would rather have a general plotline and/or specific quests to follow. Not a railroad, mind you - just some fairly clear options to choose among, including the option to ignore them all if they wanted to.
It was a lesson learned.
As for prep work, I'd have to say that it's a very different kind of preparation. I spent a lot more time learning about the world - including places they may never go. Whereas, running most adventures, you might spend a lot of time learning them inside and out; when I was doing sandbox-style stuff, I spent a lot of time making up random encounter tables, reading about nearby cities, and the like. And then, riffing off those in-game, making up most everything on the fly.
I think one of the best tools you can have is a series of random generators. Not just encounters, but cities, NPCs, thieves guilds, churches, cults, etc. Have lists of names handy organized by culture/race. That sort of thing. There are lots of resources already out there, plus you can make your own. Collecting all the generators and organizing them so you can find them in-game is some work, but once set up using them is easy. They embody the potential for a lifetime of gaming. It's an up-front cost that pays long dividends.
I'm about halfway through my follow-up to the sandbox blog entry, which is all about encounter generators. What's funny is that I was inspired to write the sandbox entry after writing the "1 Million Swords" post -- I'd forgotten how awesome random generators could be and how integral they were to sandbox DMing (obviously my preferred style).
__________________ Reynard
-------- Reynard's Foxhole - My ENWorld Blog
Updated 03-24-09: Alvoran -- Island of a Thousand Kings
Sandbox style also relies heavily on players who are comfortable/interested in taking the initiative. Early on in my DMing career, I once planned an entire encounter on one player's backstory, not realizing that the player in question had absolutely no personal initiative. We spent the entire session plodding along with little to no action or progress, because the player that I'd counted on to drive the action had no interest in doing so.
Ninjas. Ninjas always get the action moving. they are also good for CYA when you failed to prepare adequately.
__________________ Reynard
-------- Reynard's Foxhole - My ENWorld Blog
Updated 03-24-09: Alvoran -- Island of a Thousand Kings
Sandbox to me has always meant lots of improvising, which I'm relatively good at. It also requires impecable record keeping, which I tend to lag at
You will need to keep pretty accurate notes, because even the encounters or plot points you may have pre-planned will require fleshing out in the midst of the moment... players will remember that one tidbit that you threw out and forgot to write down.
__________________ Erik
"Because the gods say so, and don't like pointy eared types with curly-toed shoes, squat miners with big beards, hairy-footed midgets, etc." - EGG
Tenkar's Tavern Exploring the world of VTTs, PDFs, Gaming Related Applications and more
You will need to keep pretty accurate notes, because even the encounters or plot points you may have pre-planned will require fleshing out in the midst of the moment... players will remember that one tidbit that you threw out and forgot to write down.
Well then that's the one reason why I shouldn't touch it: I'm lousy with notes.
Well then that's the one reason why I shouldn't touch it: I'm lousy with notes.
All DMs improvise to some extent... even published adventures can't think of everything. But published adventures, or even your own pre-written (and you know you are going to use) adventures will cover most PC choices. You can always go back to the pre-written text for the memory jog, or to correct a PC that misremembers.
When you are letting the party literally lead the way you generally don't know what they are going to do. That is why accurate note taking is a must with sandbox play.
Then again, you can always add a little sandbox to a non-sandbox game. Give them two or three pretty clear choices for adventure... they get a feeling of freedom, you get to run an adventure that you have prepped for. They can always do the others after... they might even be encouraged to do so by NPCs... but they do so in an order of PC choosing.
__________________ Erik
"Because the gods say so, and don't like pointy eared types with curly-toed shoes, squat miners with big beards, hairy-footed midgets, etc." - EGG
Tenkar's Tavern Exploring the world of VTTs, PDFs, Gaming Related Applications and more
I had a very strong desire to run a game set in Vvardenfell the setting of Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. Since the original game was very sandboxy I figured it would be a no brainer to make my P&P version a sandbox as well. Wonderful thought but still a lot of work.
I had the benefit of having a pre-designed setting with a well defined world, encounter areas that are already loosely fleshed out, a detailed and expansive map to keep players interested. I've been at this project for about 3 weeks and I'm still not near the desired level of completion I'd like to be at before I start this game.
The point I'm attempting to make is that it seems there is a lot of work that has to go into your sandbox before it's ready for the players. That might just be my personal bias though. In designing a more conventional campaign I like to have most of my major plot points and even the "boss" encounters loosely statted or at least in the early stages of design before I start the game.
I'm probably going to premier my setting in about two weeks for the group it is being built for. I'll write a bit of a report then as to how my sandbox game is working out.
__________________ After the battle is over
And the sands drunken the blood
All what there remains
Is the bitterness of delusion
The immortality of the gods
Sits at their side
As they leave the walls behind
To reach the jewels gleam
I would have to say I am a sandbox DM of possibly the most extreme form. I really tend to get bored of pre-written stuff. the last (and only time in the last 5 years I think) time I ran one I ended up skipping three quarters of the module so I could get back to making stuff up.
The way I tend to prepare for a coming campaign is either read the entry of the village/location the players are starting in, or write that entry if I am running a homebrew. Sometimes I don't even bother with that step.
and then I stop. . .
When the game starts, I generally introduce the village/city/whatever and let the players interact with it for a bit. If the players are not pushing their own agenda I introduce a situation.
This situation (basically a plot hook) is usually fairly minor in the grand scheme of things; A loaf of bread being stolen, an attack on the village, a noble acting arrogantly, you know. the usual stuff. In the last campaign I ran it was finding a diseased and dying person in an alleyway.
Players can get involved or not, I am not phased at all because I just make it up as I am going along. If the players (or a player's) background presents something it gets weaved in as a situation. The key is to make these events seem fairly minor. Many could be classed as pure flavour for the setting. This way, it doesn't seem like I am just throwing plot hooks at the players hoping they will bite. Sooner or later, one or more of the players will be interested in something. Usually this happens quite quickly.
After about three sessions and on average about 4-5 different threads; I spend half an hour or so weaving them, along with anything the players have gotten involved in themselves, together into something coherent.
From this starting point I have had empire building campaigns (based around economic dominance of a war-devastated region and tense negotiations with an orc tribe), a 'free the people from the shackles of feudalism' campaign as well as a political intrigue game amongst the guilds and noble families of a city.
So . . . almost no prep, my notes consist only of the NPC's met so far and a tiny amount of plot.
Despite the simplicity of this, I can create incredibly complex plots. That political intrigue game ended up with about 6 factions (2 of which the PC's were represented in) spanning two empires manoeuvring about who should educate the heir to the throne because of the opportunity to shape the heir's education in ways that would favour one or more factions.
Interestingly, the campaign I am starting this weekend is not going to be sandbox. I am running a module again to see if I can do it!
Some of my personal favorite moments as the DM have been when I have to compensate for the players deciding to go completely in the opposite direction of the adventure I'd planned. In my early DM days, I did like to write my own adventures and map out dungeons with great detail, or I got some published material and modified it a bit to fit the campaign. One day I had designed an adventure where the PCs were to go and track down a troll they'd previously encountered in the forest who was devouring the local farmers' livestock. Initially they sat down at a tavern to plan and see about finding out more information, but quickly decided that a drinking contest was in order instead. The party rogue managed to win the contest, but ended up horribly drunk, so the rest of the party, who was considerably more sober, decided a fun prank would be to tie the rogue to the minute hand of the clock tower on top of the temple of Pelor. Much Bluffing and some bribery later the rogue is dangling 100' in the air from the minute hand and the guards are on the way to arrest the rascals. The monk uses a large kappa shell to slide down a drainspout and escapes into the temple gardens. The party swashbuckler, however, ends up on the roof of the temple, which is about 60' from the ground with only 45' of rope. He ties one end off on a gargoyle, looks below to make sure there's a large stained glass window, and promptly leaps off the roof with the rope in hand. He crashed through the window, knocked over a priest who was christening a baby, caught the baby before it could hit the ground, announced that the child would be named Tyrus (the PC's name), and then sprinted out the back door. All this resulted because I had to improvise when the players ignored the hooks I'd been dropping and got distracted. Ever since then, I tend to only come up with some very loose ideas for encounters, maps, etc. because my party has a tendency to either steamroll through or neatly avoid my careful planning. I guess you could say I'm a fan of sandbox style play now.
Ninjas. Ninjas always get the action moving. they are also good for CYA when you failed to prepare adequately.
Funny you should mention that. In nearly every campaign of mine I actually figure out a way to keep a "goon squad" on tap, if at all possible tied somehow to one of the character's backstories. This is a good idea for any kind of campaign, imo. Whenever the session is in danger of really bogging down for whatever reason, bust out the Goon Squad.
__________________ signed Jere, Lord of Pendragon
"Raven dark but beautiful, in a malevolent sort of way;
With eyes that speak of wonders on the other side of Day.
She dances in the shadows where others fear to tread;
But though her touch may kill you, it's her love that you should dread."
Funny you should mention that. In nearly every campaign of mine I actually figure out a way to keep a "goon squad" on tap, if at all possible tied somehow to one of the character's backstories. This is a good idea for any kind of campaign, imo. Whenever the session is in danger of really bogging down for whatever reason, bust out the Goon Squad.
The Nile Empires Law of Action (Torg) - if the PCs can't decide what to do, they are sure to be attacked by some Shock Troopers or some other faction. It's a world law!
From my experience so far with my group, I'd say sand-box style would be hard since we can't seem to decide or move on with anything. And I am certainly one of those "not-moving-on"-type of players.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
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I think my most successful pure 'sandbox' game was based on a map at 10 miles/cm (5 miles/hex or similar also works), constructed around and stuffed full of pre-written adventure sites. These were mostly short, low level adventures from old White Dwarf magazine, plus WotC free downloads and some stuff of my own. It meant that wherever the PCs went, there was stuff going on. Not all of it was geared to their level, in fact they ended up with an evil minor artifact, The Ebony Horn, that could - and did - summon hordes of undead. They got in a feud with a noble family and the last session of the campaign was the 2 surviving PCs attacking the nobles' castle, aided by a horde of hobgoblin cannon-fodder, with running battles along the battlements.
My impression from that was that evil/criminal PCs are particularly suited to sandbox play. Paladins may need more motivation.
This type of thing is why I think pre-game surveys are a good tool to use in campaign development. Ask the players what types of adventures they like to play and if they prefer following a storyline originated by the DM or of thier own choosing. There is little point to preparing a huge metaplot and story if the players just want to explore the world on thier own terms.
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