4e / GSL Dragonlance 4e in 2010?

[Mercurius]

Count me among those that don't want to see Dragonlance in 2010; that would mean that, at the earliest, Wizards would be putting out a new setting in 2011...three years after 4E started.

I also think it more likely that Dark Sun gets official treatment before Dragonlance, but who knows? Wizards might not even be sure what they're going to do after Eberron in 2009.

[Nifft]

I never played or read Dragonlance.

Would anyone like to pitch the setting's cool hooks and/or unique feel?

Thanks, -- N

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

Count me among those that don't want to see Dragonlance in 2010; that would mean that, at the earliest, Wizards would be putting out a new setting in 2011...three years after 4E started.

I also think it more likely that Dark Sun gets official treatment before Dragonlance, but who knows? Wizards might not even be sure what they're going to do after Eberron in 2009.

Do they even went to put out new settings? I'd like to see some (at least one using the entire PoL background information), but I am not sure that's even a goal.

[Keefe the Thief]

Originally Posted by jensun

EnWorld has an ignore function?

What an excellent idea.

The settings hasn´t even been announced and the whining how it is going to be ruined is already starting? Bah! I want Dragonlance, and i want a creative re-imagination! Smash it to pieces and set it together anew! No chaos war crap, no half-hearted continuing of the storyline ("events this summer: Draconian army 34 moves from A to B"). Be creative and agressive about it - i don´t need "slightly changed classic dragonlance." I own that already.

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by wedgeski

Okay count me in as a hopeful skeptic, but in the early days of 3E, Dragonlance was also quoted by WotC as one of the settings that would receive an official treatment. That commitment was then withdrawn... in favour of MWP's most excellent licensed output, admittedly.

Not quite. WotC promised 3e support for Dragonlance, and delivered. The first setting book was actually published by WotC! The subsequent books were published by Sovereign Press (which I believe morphed in Margaret Weiss Publishing or some such). We got tons of official 3e Dragonlance books! Yes, the majority of the line was licensed, but who cares?

[Remathilis]

Heh, I always thought 4e would be a good fit for Dragonlance...

Draconians (Dragonborn)? Check.
Three mechanically distinct fey races (elves)? Check.
Wizards with staves? Check.
Kender (halflings)? Check.
Civilized Minotaurs? Check.
The Abyss as something more than the CE plane? Check!

All that Dragonlance would really need to do is explain away tieflings (not hard) and the PHB is good out the door!

As a bonus: DL would bring Wizard of High Sorcery Paragon Paths, Knight of Solomnia Paragon, Handler Paragon Path, and a bunch of cool stuff.

While I'd have gone either Ravenloft (which appears to be worming itself into the core) or Planescape (ditto, see MotP), Dragonlance works.

Bring on Dark Sun 2011!

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by Nifft

I never played or read Dragonlance.

Would anyone like to pitch the setting's cool hooks and/or unique feel?

Hmm... well, I don't know that it really has cool hooks, per se. It's one of the oldest D&D settings, dating all the way back to 1st Edition, and settings back then tended to be relatively generic - as I recall, it wasn't until 2E that we started getting exotic settings like Dark Sun, Planescape, and Spelljammer.

I guess I'd say that the defining trait of the Dragonlance setting, as compared to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, is that Dragonlance has an overarching narrative which is mostly lacking in the other two. Some of the specific features of Dragonlance are:

• A clearly delineated, Manichean clash of Big Good versus Big Evil. Instead of an assortment of loosely affiliated deities, the Dragonlance gods are divided into three pantheons - good, evil, and neutral - with established leaders and nobody unaccounted for*. The conflict between Paladine, the chief god of good, and Takhisis, the chief goddess of evil, drives much of the story.
• A philosophical commitment to a balance between good and evil. The good and neutral gods have an alliance, wherein they both try to maintain the balance. The evil gods have no interest in balance and are constantly trying to tip the scales in favor of evil. The way this generally plays out is that good and evil are roughly balanced; evil launches a campaign to become ascendant; good intervenes to put a stop to it and restore the status quo.
• Dragons are not solitary monsters; they are agents of the gods and take an active part in the aforementioned good-versus-evil clash. Powerful leaders on both sides ride on dragon mounts, and big armies often have dragon air support. The gods themselves have a dragon theme going on. Paladine is also called the Platinum Dragon and looks a lot like Bahamut; Takhisis is the Five-Headed Dragon and is a dead ringer for Tiamat**.
• A tendency for world-spanning organizations to dominate the action. Beyond the first few levels, all wizards must take a Test and join one of the three orders of wizardry (the White Robes, Red Robes, or Black Robes, again corresponding to good, neutral, and evil). Instead of traditional paladins, Dragonlance has the Knights of Solamnia, a powerful order dedicated to the service of the good gods and bound by an ancient code of laws. The forces of evil are largely controlled by the Dragon Highlords. And so on.

The upshot of all this is that Dragonlance lends itself to epic fantasy in the Tolkien style, while Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are much more swords-and-sorcery. This is somewhat limiting from a DM perspective, because you're locked into the overarching narrative - you can't introduce a new Big Evil without explaining what the heck happened to Takhisis. On the other hand, if you're okay with following that narrative, the whole setting supports it.

Also, Dragonlance was responsible for perpetrating both kender and tinker gnomes.

* Raistlin Majere doesn't count.
** In fact, when 2E launched its ill-fated effort to consolidate all its campaign worlds into a single multiverse, they declared that Paladine was Bahamut and Takhisis was Tiamat, just going by different names for the benefit of their followers on Krynn (the world of Dragonlance).

[wedgeski]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

Not quite. WotC promised 3e support for Dragonlance, and delivered. The first setting book was actually published by WotC! The subsequent books were published by Sovereign Press (which I believe morphed in Margaret Weiss Publishing or some such). We got tons of official 3e Dragonlance books! Yes, the majority of the line was licensed, but who cares?

Well, being picky about who published the DLCS aside (the SP guys certainly wrote it), it's a different implied goal. FR and DL were originally both stated as being in the pipeline for a 3E treatment from Wizards, then they announced that they'd changed their mind about DL (announced might be extravagant... I believe Jim Butler posted a message somewhere... it was a long time ago, memory... hazy...). Some time after that, they then licensed it to SP. To me, licensing a property, and developing it in-house, say two different things about how that property is valued. Cam or Dragonhelm might have better recall about how it all went down.

Having said that, Sovereign Press's output was, on the whole, damn good, and I think they did the line proud.

[Whitemouse]

I have fond memories of playing 2E Dragonlance. I never got into Dragonlance in its 3E conception, but I know I'd love to see the setting updated for 4E.

[Irda Ranger]

Originally Posted by Derren

Dragonlance always was low powered. Just compare the first books with some FR books, like the ones about Drizzt.

The Drizzt books were never intended to track a written adventure. The DL books tracked the DL adventures, including starting at low level and leveling up. The DL books did a pretty good job of describing what it's like to be a low level Hero.

Also: Raistlin (Wiz 20, Master of Past and Present), Ariakas (Ftr/Wiz 20, Dragon Highlord), Ariakan (Half-God Ftr 20 Dragon Highlord), Astinus (God's Aspect, Immortal), Fistandantilus, Kingpriest of Istar, Par Salian ...

Are these people PCs? Does it matter? If Elminster and the Simbul make FR "high powered" than you have to count Par Salian, Raistlin, etc. too. Fair's fair.

I would also like to point out that any setting where there are standing armies that ride Elder Wyrm Red, Gold, Blue, etc. dragons can not, in any sense of the word, be "low powered." Regardless of what level their riders are.

Lastly, Kaz would kick Drizzt's ass.

Originally Posted by Derren

Mechanically characters in DL always had more restrictions than normal D&D characters. Magic was restricted through the Order and through a (optional) drain mechanic and in 2E there was even a level cap for DL characters at lvl 18.

I fail to see why a DL 4E couldn't adopt similar restrictions if they wanted to. Just because the current 4E rules don't map perfectly to Krynn doesn't mean that couldn't be fixed.

Originally Posted by Derren

low powered and the 4E power system doesn't mix.

This is categorically false. They map fine. The simplest way to do it is cap level advancement at Level X (whether X=10, 15, 20, etc. depends on what you're aiming for). But there are other ways too. Rather than be small-minded about it and continually repeat the untrue you should try it some time.

Originally Posted by Derren

As for DL being a point of light setting, not in the traditional sense.

You don't consider Solace a point of light? What about Tarsis?

Originally Posted by Derren

the darkness was very lawful and not chaotic like in traditional PoL settings.

Takhisis was Lawful Evil? Who knew! </sarcasm>

Red Dragons, goblins, draconians - plenty of chaotic evil to go around.

Originally Posted by Derren

The wilderness wasn't untamed and full of monsters

Of course. The comfortable resting spot outside Solace, the road to Haven, Darken Wood, the plains of Que Shu and Xak Tsaroth weren't at all like that. Very civilized. No monsters at all.

Am I out of Chapter 5 of the very first book yet?

Originally Posted by Derren

Instead you had had tyrants who ruled over the land, but the land itself was rather safe.

This is true. No one ever was attacked by monsters while traveling the roads of Krynn. Not in any of the novels I read.

Wait, no, the opposite.

Originally Posted by Derren

Even the goblins and ogres in DL build cities.

Yeah, cities full of goblins and ogres.

Actually, check that. What cities are you talking about? The closest thing to a city I can think of was Neraka (which was a ruin from a previous Age) and the army camps set up by Draconians (not ogres or goblins). Ogres and goblins attacked, sacked, and occupied cities (like Vikings on PCP), but I don't recall them building any.

Are you sure you're talking about Dragonlance? Maybe you were thinking of something else ...

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by wedgeski

FR and DL were originally both stated as being in the pipeline for a 3E treatment from Wizards, then they announced that they'd changed their mind about DL (announced might be extravagant... I believe Jim Butler posted a message somewhere... it was a long time ago, memory... hazy...).

I can't find any evidence that Wizards said that Dragonlance would be handled in 3e. However, I can find evidence that Dragonlance was explicitly stated to not receive support 4 months after 3e's launch (December 2000, Jim Butler), and it was another year or two before SP picked up the license.

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by Irda Ranger

This is categorically false. They map fine. The simplest way to do it is cap level advancement at Level X (whether X=10, 15, 20, etc. depends on what you're aiming for).

You don't even need to do that. 4E supports low-powered campaigns quite well; you start out stronger than in previous editions, but the power gain from levelling up is fairly small. A 30th-level character in 4E is much less powerful than a 20th-level character in 2E.

[Kamikaze Midget]

DL?

Okay.

BORED NOW, WANT NEW THING

Or at least "different old thing."

[Derren]

Originally Posted by Irda Ranger

The Drizzt books were never intended to track a written adventure. The DL books tracked the DL adventures, including starting at low level and leveling up. The DL books did a pretty good job of describing what it's like to be a low level Hero.

Okey, then what FR lore would you propose to use as comparisation?

Also: Raistlin (Wiz 20, Master of Past and Present), Ariakas (Ftr/Wiz 20, Dragon Highlord), Ariakan (Half-God Ftr 20 Dragon Highlord), Astinus (God's Aspect, Immortal), Fistandantilus, Kingpriest of Istar, Par Salian ...

Except that there are less high powered individuals in the entire history of Krynn than what most organizations have in the FR.

Are these people PCs? Does it matter? If Elminster and the Simbul make FR "high powered" than you have to count Par Salian, Raistlin, etc. too. Fair's fair.

Ok, so over the entire history of DL you have about 10 high powered individuals. Compare that with FR. Seven sisters + Khelben + Elminster + dozens of others.

I would also like to point out that any setting where there are standing armies that ride Elder Wyrm Red, Gold, Blue, etc. dragons can not, in any sense of the word, be "low powered." Regardless of what level their riders are.

DL dragons were always portrayed rather weak. Also what does it matter if teh dragons serve in an army or sit around the countryside? Do you think that the FR has fewer, less powerful dragons (Nexus, Klauth, Balagos, Daurgothoth, Tchezzar, Inferno,...)

You don't consider Solace a point of light? What about Tarsis?

Do we mean the same Solace? The well travelled village sitting right on a big, important trade route?
And Tarsis also was a trade hub, although nothing compared to the pre-cataclysm Tarsis.
Both cities are not really points of light where no one dares to leave in fear of monsters. On whole Ansalon trade flourishes and there is no real "Don't go outside because the monsters might get you" feeling. When something threatened the people of Ansalon then it is open warfare and not wild monsters.

Takhisis was Lawful Evil? Who knew! </sarcasm>

Red Dragons, goblins, draconians - plenty of chaotic evil to go around.

All organized in a highly structured army. Later Thakisis had even very lawful knightly orders. And draconians have a rigid military society. No chaos at all.
There weren't many "wandering monsters" in DL unless it was a time of war and the wandering monsters were enemy soldiers.

Of course. The comfortable resting spot outside Solace, the road to Haven, Darken Wood, the plains of Que Shu and Xak Tsaroth weren't at all like that. Very civilized. No monsters at all.

All not so dangerous as to make it a PoL setting. Rather those are points of darkness in a sea of grey.

This is true. No one ever was attacked by monsters while traveling the roads of Krynn. Not in any of the novels I read.

Wait, no, the opposite.

Yeah, because it was war and those "monsters" were working for the other side.

Yeah, cities full of goblins and ogres.

Actually, check that. What cities are you talking about? The closest thing to a city I can think of was Neraka (which was a ruin from a previous Age) and the army camps set up by Draconians (not ogres or goblins). Ogres and goblins attacked, sacked, and occupied cities (like Vikings on PCP), but I don't recall them building any.

Except for the nation of Blöten consisting out of several cities and villages, all ruled by Ogres. And no, they weren't just big dungeons. Those Ogres for example traded with dwarves for example.
And then there is Sikk'et Hul, a peaceful goblin nation.

Are you sure you're talking about Dragonlance? Maybe you were thinking of something else ...

I think that is rather your problem.

[Vocenoctum]

At various points in it's publication, Dragonlance would make a great PoL setting. The problem is, DL isn't like FR, where the realms get shattered but you can still recognize things. DL just massively chances it's entire feel/focus 5-6 times.

They consolidated Age of Mortals into a coherent setting, then threw some novels in the mix that totally muddied up everything. I left Krynn behind, and don't know where it's at now. If they could consolidate again, perhaps it could work, but I think it'd just make the world unplayable again anyway.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by Dragonhelm

The latest episode of the Dragonlance Canticle goes into some good detail.

Phil Athans said that Dragonlance is a D&D brand and would be alive and well at WotC for the next 25 years (passing the 25-year milestone already). When asked whether there would be a DL for 4e, Phil would not specifically say (due to audio recording), but he nodded his head emphatically signifying that yes, there would be a DL in 4th edition.

As of this time, there are no further details. You can check out this thread for full details.

And I would like to point out to the viewing "audience" what I said on that thread, my dear Dragonhelm, is that this only amounts to an "official rumor" which is an oxymoron.
You're a great boon to the DL community, but I think you jumped the gun on this one. This could go south *so* easily. I'd wait until there was some sort of confirmation from WotC, not necessarily of releasing the setting, but at to least acknowledge that there are talks being finalized. As for Athans' comment, that could very have well been referring to the recent snaffu WotC has had with Weis and Hickman over the novels, right? Right now I'm really getting the impression that WotC is wrestling Weis and Hickman over their level of influence upon WotC's property.
When I asked Weis about the novel stuff at GenCon, she said everything was alright but said with the most weary expression. The whole encounter left we with the impression that things are probably going to get kind of south with Dragonlance and WotC in the next few years.

[Son_of_Thunder]

Can we only post in this thread if we are for DL 4e? If so I guess I won't post.

[Obryn]

Whether or not I will care about DL 4e will depend on 3 main questions.

(1) Will there be Kender?
(2) Will there be Tinker Gnomes?
(3) Will there be Gully Dwarves?

An affirmative answer to any of the above would basically negate any interest I'd have in the setting.

-O

[ferratus]

On the issue of whether Dragonlance is a high magic or a low magic world, the consensus among the fanbase is that Dragonlance has the ordinary level of D&D magic in it, if not more.

However, the magical item trade and magical practice is private instead of public. There are mageware shops that sell some minor magical items, but the stores are usually only in major cities like Palanthas or Sanction, and are run by the Wizards of High Sorcery. In fact, most of the trade in magic is done between members of that secretive order.

Magical item weapons of war are usually made through the churches, particularly those of good and evil.

On the issue of Dragonlance and 4e, the new edition seems to be relatively well received among the fanbase, and makes it easier to do a lot of dragonlance tropes. Dragonlance is known for its artifacts for example, so the new way of doing artifacts (at every tier, and move along after awhile) allows for them to be more accessible during campaigns.

Monsters can cause damage when brought to zero hp in 4e like draconians, halflings are kender, dragonborn make dragon-men as a PC race more viable, and warlocks make excellent renegades.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Obryn

Whether or not I will care about DL 4e will depend on 3 main questions.

(1) Will there be Kender?
(2) Will there be Tinker Gnomes?
(3) Will there be Gully Dwarves?

An affirmative answer to any of the above would basically negate any interest I'd have in the setting.

-O

I'd say the answer is probably yes... but only two- no more then two. [/nosepick]