General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
And it was a very nice adventure, too. However, most of the fellows that did Dl3e came from the old DL3e website, so compared to "classic" 'lance, it becomes just like the Magius language or like Noble Draconians: expanded universe aka, largely apocryphal, or to put it in the TVtropes.org way, the Inmates Running the Asylum.
Right. It's terrible when folks who've been fans of the setting since the beginning get together with many of the setting's creators and authors and, with oversight from the owners of the setting's IP, develop the setting further and with consistency. That never turns out well.
My problem is not the War of Souls, which I think set Krynn up to be a fun, playable setting. It's the books that followed. The Solamnia trilogy looks like it was set somewhere else and they just changed the names to make it Dragonlance. The other books also just kept rewriting basic krynn concepts at will. Instead of moving forward with the sweeping changes of the War of Souls, they introduced more sweeping changes.
There was, believe it or not, a ten-year-plan for the setting developed at the time of War of Souls and for the most part carried out by the authors of the later trilogies such Richard Knaak, Paul Thompson & Tonya Cook, Doug Niles, and Margaret herself. Clearly some of those particular story elements have generated mixed responses (many people don't like the developments in Solamnia, while others are overjoyed at the outcome of Elven Exiles) but overall I think it's come together more or less at this stage.
The real problem with advancing any setting is that you'll get people who wish it would never advance at all, and those who don't think it advanced in the way they would have liked it to. Change is guaranteed to foster frustration and even alienation in some fans, even if it satisfies a pressing need for others.
FR is doing well due to bieng the only real supplement out for DD 4e and the Living Campaign.
Perhaps so. All I can say on my end is that the changes made in the switch to 4e have made for a more compelling setting, one that I'm actually interested in adventuring in. It feels much more like the 2e FR box, which is how I cut my teeth on the setting.
There was, believe it or not, a ten-year-plan for the setting developed at the time of War of Souls and for the most part carried out by the authors of the later trilogies such Richard Knaak, Paul Thompson & Tonya Cook, Doug Niles, and Margaret herself. Clearly some of those particular story elements have generated mixed responses (many people don't like the developments in Solamnia, while others are overjoyed at the outcome of Elven Exiles) but overall I think it's come together more or less at this stage.
The real problem with advancing any setting is that you'll get people who wish it would never advance at all, and those who don't think it advanced in the way they would have liked it to. Change is guaranteed to foster frustration and even alienation in some fans, even if it satisfies a pressing need for others.
Cheers,
Cam
The Solamnia trilogy starts with a Solamnia unlike anything in Krynn published to that point. It then follows a threat that is also antithetical to the way Krynn worked at that point. It then introduces Gun Powder, through a long, drawn out and goofy setup, and I just can't see gun powder being unknown to gnomes by that point.
The Wizards Conclave thing, again, just kind of tosses random elements at the board that look totally alien to the way Krynn had been at that point.
Now, this may all be a grand plan, it may be popular with some folks, and it could just be me, but they drove me from Dragonlance after I had returned.
__________________ Why should I listen to you?
You're just a pigment of my imagination.
Like bleen or gurple.
--8Bit Fighter
Are you still a heretic or apostate if you're the one labeling yourself those terms? I don't think anybody else has ever referred to you as either.
Cheers,
Cam
Being cut from the paperback is probably a sign of heresy As for apostasy . . . I have only the most passing interest in Dragonlance, have not bought a DL book in several years, haven't read one since Dragons of the Dwarven Depths (and found it disappointing), and only glanced at Dragons of the Highlord Skies to see what they did with Soth. If not an apostate, I'm almost certainly an ex-fan.
Speaking of which, if they do reboot Ravenloft, I would love to see Soth and Sithicus removed from the setting. Too much baggage, and Sithicus is just dull without the Black Rose.
Too much baggage, and Sithicus is just dull without the Black Rose.
Kind of defeats the purpose, yes. Although I have come around to the idea that Soth went to Ravenloft, if only because Jim Lowder presents such a convincing and sound argument.
There is a lot of goofy stuff that showed up in the later books. I mean, let's see how many people who have been away from the setting say WTF? to these plot elements:
1) Takhisis and Paladine died
2) Mina replaced both Paladine & Takhisis as goddess of good and evil simultaneously
3) Shinare replaced Paladine as one of the patrons of the Knights of Solamnia. Shinare is the neutral goddess of trade.
4) The head of the white robes made a magical roofie for the leader of the Knights of Solamnia to get the girl he wanted.
5) Krynn was stolen and put in a new galaxy, where the gods couldn't find it.
6) After the discovery of gunpowder, people had working battlefield guns within a couple years.
I think saying that people being upset with the way dragonlance has been handled over the years isn't because of a fear of change. I think people just generally felt that the changes were bad writing and bad setting development.
I think saying that people being upset with the way dragonlance has been handled over the years isn't because of a fear of change. I think people just generally felt that the changes were bad writing and bad setting development.
I didn't say they were AFRAID of change. I said they either didn't want it to change, or didn't like what happened when it did. It's very common in shared world properties; just look at Star Wars.
Luckily, just like with Star Wars, you can dial back the clock to any time you like with Dragonlance and have about as much fun as is humanly possible. I know this to be objectively true.
There is a lot of goofy stuff that showed up in the later books. I mean, let's see how many people who have been away from the setting say WTF? to these plot elements:
1) Takhisis and Paladine died
2) Mina replaced both Paladine & Takhisis as goddess of good and evil simultaneously
3) Shinare replaced Paladine as one of the patrons of the Knights of Solamnia. Shinare is the neutral goddess of trade.
4) The head of the white robes made a magical roofie for the leader of the Knights of Solamnia to get the girl he wanted.
5) Krynn was stolen and put in a new galaxy, where the gods couldn't find it.
6) After the discovery of gunpowder, people had working battlefield guns within a couple years.
I think saying that people being upset with the way dragonlance has been handled over the years isn't because of a fear of change. I think people just generally felt that the changes were bad writing and bad setting development.
Holy crap!
That's definitely NOT the Dragonlance I remember.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
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-Kender vs. Halflings: I think there are some pretty significant differences... the resistances to fear, their taunting ability, racial weapon (hoopak!). When it comes to attitude, the kleptomania of kender is set to 10, where it's probably a 6 or 7 on traditional halflings. I think it would probably be best to present the Kender as the optional replacement for halflings. They have a rather infamous reputation at the gaming table, so they will obviously have to address that. But I don't think it would be fair to just say Kender=Halflings.
-Draconians vs. Dragonborn: Again, this could be presented as an optional replacement race for Dragonborn. The differences here are much more pronounced, and to be totally faithful to the Draconians of the books may take some doing. Probably requiring a few feats to accomplish what the books say they can do.
-Revamping: More than likely there will be a revamp involved. Honestly, if any fans of the setting have trouble with this, one thing to keep in mind is the number of world shattering events that have changed the world forever. The gods "left" twice. How many cataclysms have we had? 3? 4? It has been defined in four different game systems (1e, 2e, SAGA, 3e) And considering the current state of things in the novels, and the likelyhood that will change, with our without 4e's help... This is nothing to worry about. People will be upset more than likely, but you have to admit this is par for the course in Dragonlance.
-Revamping: More than likely there will be a revamp involved. Honestly, if any fans of the setting have trouble with this, one thing to keep in mind is the number of world shattering events that have changed the world forever. The gods "left" twice. How many cataclysms have we had? 3? 4? It has been defined in four different game systems (1e, 2e, SAGA, 3e) And considering the current state of things in the novels, and the likelyhood that will change, with our without 4e's help... This is nothing to worry about. People will be upset more than likely, but you have to admit this is par for the course in Dragonlance.
Interestingly, the system changes have always come after the novel changes. SAGA was designed after DoSF had been written (and was a shift from the design team's original plan of a streamlined 2E AD&D variant), and the War of Souls was in the works before 3E.
-Revamping: More than likely there will be a revamp involved. Honestly, if any fans of the setting have trouble with this, one thing to keep in mind is the number of world shattering events that have changed the world forever. The gods "left" twice. How many cataclysms have we had? 3? 4? It has been defined in four different game systems (1e, 2e, SAGA, 3e) And considering the current state of things in the novels, and the likelyhood that will change, with our without 4e's help... This is nothing to worry about. People will be upset more than likely, but you have to admit this is par for the course in Dragonlance.
There have been two Cataclysms, although the second is really not a thing like the first, and the first took place before the events of the first trilogy. Indeed, the gods left the first time before the first trilogy began, so if you want to be a stickler for all of this the setting has (since its inception) had three major wars, one of which ended with a world-shaking event (gods leaving, revealed to be the world stolen by Takhisis), and another with the death of one god and the demotion of another to mortal form.
It's somewhat overstating it to attribute constant world-shaking disaster to Dragonlance given that it's not exactly happened that often during its almost 25 year history. Worse has happened to the Forgotten Realms.
Surely the very first set of books would translate extremely well to 4e?
Having not really kept up with the continuity, I'm not familiar with where we are now, but the original storyline of incoming armies, the return of the Gods and so forth would make an excellent 4e "Points of Light" game.
And which of the heroes had martial powers that let them damage multiple enemies at once, or other 4E type attacks? The heroes were very average. They weren't superheroes, aside from Raistlin, and even he didn't go that way until after he exited stage left and abandoned the other companions on the Blood Sea.
The feel of Dragonlance has always been different than what you see in 4E.
Actually, check that. What cities are you talking about? The closest thing to a city I can think of was Neraka (which was a ruin from a previous Age) and the army camps set up by Draconians (not ogres or goblins). Ogres and goblins attacked, sacked, and occupied cities (like Vikings on PCP), but I don't recall them building any.
Are you sure you're talking about Dragonlance? Maybe you were thinking of something else ...
There are definitely ogre and goblin cities. For that matter, the Draconians even have a city. And the Minotaurs are empire builders. The ogre cities are near Khur I believe. I'd have to go check out the campaign book, but they're definitely there.
There's been a tradition of these other races having civilization since the 1980's, as some of my first Dragonlance modules, that happened *after* the modules tied to the novels, included cities by ogres especially. The Draconian cities were founded afterwards. And the minotaurs have always had several.
Yes; in 4E we call them "Halflings." (+5 save vs. fear?) Any changes would be purely cosmetic and RP-based, which is better enforced by table rules.
Yes, but in 4E Gnomes are Monsters ("Raaawr!"), so you can kill them and take their stuff. That's not so bad.
Were there ever? I mean, as a seriously offered PC race? I think the answer to that question must be "No".
I have all three editions of Dragonlance, and there are gully dwarves as PCs in all of them. I haven't had a player select one, but they have played tinker gnomes and kender.
That's a bogus distinction. There isn't only one kind of PoL, with all others are incapable of being a 4E setting. For one, PoL captures a wide range of possibilities (of which Krynn certainly is one), and for two, PoL is merely the default setting, not the only kind of setting you can use 4E rules in.
Krynn is PoL "enough" for anyone who doesn't have fixed preconceptions of "only one 'amount' of safety qualifies", and even if it were peaceful fields of happy daisies from Ergoth to Icewall you could still use 4E rules.
And the existence of one or two "monster" nations does not make all of Krynn free of darkness any more than Wulgar makes Icewind Dale a land full to the brim of peaceful & friendly barbarians.
According to some of these definitions, my home city in Canada is a points of light setting. I mean, my home's a safe haven, but if I walk out the door, there are annoying vandals, local thieves who keep stealing my garbage bins, 3 blocks from my house I've run across coyotes, had a timber wolf watch me from the edge of my neighbourhood, and have had to restrain my dog from chasing skunks. All of these hazards could cause me significant difficulties, danger, or simply varying levels of annoyance, if I wasn't careful.
I have all three editions of Dragonlance, and there are gully dwarves as PCs in all of them. I haven't had a player select one, but they have played tinker gnomes and kender.
Banshee
My point exactly. The rules were there but it wasn't a serious offer.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
My point exactly. The rules were there but it wasn't a serious offer.
I've heard of players who played them. Dragonlance seemed to encourage sub-optimal choices in a lot of players I've known.
To each his own. It was always, to me, a more roleplaying friendly, less dungeoneering style setting than FR, for example. I liked both settings, for different reasons.
I don't appreciate the carnage done to the realms for 4E, but do think it's probably more of a natural fit. Dragonlance just feels off....just as I don't think 4E will work with Planescape.....but it would with Dark Sun. Heck, with Dark Sun, you've even got ways to use the tieflings and dragonborn. The Dragonborn would simply be Dregoth's transformed people. I don't remember what they were called. The tieflings could be mutants or something.
.....but it would with Dark Sun. Heck, with Dark Sun, you've even got ways to use the tieflings and dragonborn. The Dragonborn would simply be Dregoth's transformed people. I don't remember what they were called. The tieflings could be mutants or something.
The Dray. I'd forgotten about the dray. That could work. I'm not so sure about the tieflings. However, as long as the race is changed to fit into the setting instead of the other way around... then that might be okay.
But no gnomes, or orcs. And keep the PoL cosmology away from Athas!
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
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