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Part of Athas' schtick was that it was isolated from other planes. The only planar connections, IIRC, were elemental. And for those purposes, the Elemental Chaos works just as well as four separate elemental planes.
So really, why does it matter what cosmology may exist beyond Athas, if Athas can't reach it and isn't affected by it?
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I can't find any evidence that Wizards said that Dragonlance would be handled in 3e. However, I can find evidence that Dragonlance was explicitly stated to not receive support 4 months after 3e's launch (December 2000, Jim Butler), and it was another year or two before SP picked up the license.
Purely because I spent an inordinate amount of time waiting for an over-full kettle to boil last night while thinking about this, I can assure you that it was. I can visualise in my head right now the Wizards web page which broke the news, but I can't find it anywhere.
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For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
As for DL being a point of light setting, not in the traditional sense.
What traditional sense? Points of light is still a new concept, so there hasn't been any time to establish a tradition. Perhaps WotC wants to expand how we define points of light.
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Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief
The settings hasn´t even been announced and the whining how it is going to be ruined is already starting? Bah! I want Dragonlance, and i want a creative re-imagination! Smash it to pieces and set it together anew! No chaos war crap, no half-hearted continuing of the storyline ("events this summer: Draconian army 34 moves from A to B"). Be creative and agressive about it - i don´t need "slightly changed classic dragonlance." I own that already.
While I have an obvious bias towards the work MWP has done with Dragonlance, I do think that maybe now is the time for some new direction with Dragonlance - so long as it is true to the setting. I don't think we need another Cataclysm, but perhaps some new villains would be nice.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
The Abyss as something more than the CE plane? Check!
All that Dragonlance would really need to do is explain away tieflings (not hard) and the PHB is good out the door!
As a bonus: DL would bring Wizard of High Sorcery Paragon Paths, Knight of Solomnia Paragon, Handler Paragon Path, and a bunch of cool stuff.
The Abyss in Dragonlance is not the same as the traditional D&D Abyss. Tieflings already exist in Dragonlance, per Price of Courage.
I would caution, though, against making the 3e PrCs into paragon paths. Wizards should already be WoHS well before they reach paragon levels. I think we can use base classes and provide some nifty powers based on organizations for characters to take.
I'll try to reply more in a bit. Certainly, you guys have a lot to say where Dragonlance is concerned!
1) Takhisis and Paladine died
2) Mina replaced both Paladine & Takhisis as goddess of good and evil simultaneously
3) Shinare replaced Paladine as one of the patrons of the Knights of Solamnia. Shinare is the neutral goddess of trade.
4) The head of the white robes made a magical roofie for the leader of the Knights of Solamnia to get the girl he wanted.
5) Krynn was stolen and put in a new galaxy, where the gods couldn't find it.
6) After the discovery of gunpowder, people had working battlefield guns within a couple years.
A bit out of order and these things didn't happen all at once, but the essentials are correct. The thing is... Dragonlance during 3E became a more vibrant setting with stories possible OUTSIDE the original 12 modules. Who REALLY wants to play through the War of the Lance OVER AND OVER again (yeah.. I bought the updated versions... sure me). The Tahkisis, Paladine, Mina thing was done to correct/readjust the whole SAGA/5th Age changes that were in effect... not perfect, but not really BAD. The Solamnic Emperor story made the THAT part of the world interesting again. And the gunpowder stuff is concentrated in the hands of a couple of dwarves and gnomes and can EASILY be gotten rid of by some judicious murders.
Complaining about stories doesn't really lead any where. Do what you want! Hell's Bells! Do you think Ed Greenwood obeys the "official" story line of the Forgotten Realms? He's SAID he doesn't! His gaming group's PCs have never heard of Maztica, Kara-tur, or Al-qadim. Use what you want and discard the rest. THAT is the coolest thing about role-playing in general and DnD specifically!
Oh great, another setting is getting butchered.
Especially DL doesn't really work with 4E as it has a civilized, if slightly ravaged from war, society and doesn't focus so much on superawesomeheroes with uberleet powerz.
Its more so that they try and shoehorn 4e general stuff into each setting. So now there's tieflings and dragonborn in Dragonlance and the magic system could not revolve around the cycles of Krynn's moons.
Bill Slavicsek has said that each WOTC 4e setting was going to be for 'general' D&D. Dragonlance has a lot of differences that translate into rules mechanic's and if you totally ignore that then yes Dragonlance will get butchered in 4e.
Mike
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A bit out of order and these things didn't happen all at once, but the essentials are correct. The thing is... Dragonlance during 3E became a more vibrant setting with stories possible OUTSIDE the original 12 modules.
I'll agree there, but through the release of the sourcebooks. Particularly the War of the Lance sourcebook.
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Who REALLY wants to play through the War of the Lance OVER AND OVER again (yeah.. I bought the updated versions... sure me).
See that's what really bugs me. Dragonlance fans were frustrated for 10 years where the only books released were prequels of the WotL, and no modules were released. So when they finally did advance the storyline, any criticism of that storyline is seen as wanting to return to the previous way the brand was managed badly. That's a false dichotomy.
I'm perfectly fine with the generational move a couple of times, and new villains, creatures, plotlines etc. What I dislike are ideas that are really bad and damage the brand's enjoyability. The 5 I mentioned are the really big sins of the current batch of novels. The 5th Age stinker ideas have largely been cleaned up, and most of the bad prequel novels have been declared non-canonical. These ideas likewise, should be ashcanned or retconned in some way.
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The Solamnic Emperor story made the THAT part of the world interesting again. And the gunpowder stuff is concentrated in the hands of a couple of dwarves and gnomes and can EASILY be gotten rid of by some judicious murders.
I don't mind the Solamnic Emperor (though I prefer Solamnia as a collection of city states with a common culture and knighthood), nor do I mind the introduction of gunpowder to the setting. I just think the storyline was really bad. Have the Order of the White Robes impeached by her fellow members of the conclave, or have her punished for lying about her alignment and all is good again. Some consequences for the Solamnic leader for being a murderer and a rapist at the hands of some real Solamnic Knights would be good too.
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Complaining about stories doesn't really lead any where. Do what you want! Hell's Bells! Do you think Ed Greenwood obeys the "official" story line of the Forgotten Realms? He's SAID he doesn't! His gaming group's PCs have never heard of Maztica, Kara-tur, or Al-qadim. Use what you want and discard the rest. THAT is the coolest thing about role-playing in general and DnD specifically!
True, but if they are going to release a Campaign Setting Guide without a plot reboot, I'll undoubtedly just buy the Player's Guide with the rules information.
The only question is which side of the dragonlance fanbase is bigger. Those that like the storylines and setting changes since WotL, or those that hate them? Would those that accept the changes still buy a Campaign Guide that cleaved more closely to the classic dragonlance campaign world?
It's definitely a work in progress—I've had some good feedback from the fans over at the Dragonlance forums already.
I checked it out, and a lot of it looks pretty good to me. I'm concerned about the half-dwarf being slightly more powerful than the regular PHB dwarf, and I think the kender taunt is a bit too powerful, especially because of the sustain capability.
One thought I had was to make it an immediate reaction when an enemy adjacent to you starts its turn, and if you hit, you force it to make a melee basic attack against you (thereby burning it's standard action, and not allowing the use of powers, except ones that count as basics).
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We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
I'm perfectly fine with the generational move a couple of times, and new villains, creatures, plotlines etc. What I dislike are ideas that are really bad and damage the brand's enjoyability. The 5 I mentioned are the really big sins of the current batch of novels.
To be fair, it does sound as if you've only read the Solamnic trilogy, which is the one that's had the most controversy surrounding it. You would need to read the others, especially Rick Knaak's ogre titans and Paul and Tonya's Elven Exiles, to get a better picture of what the 10-year-period is supposed to cover.
Very little of the books in the past three or four years are going to be retconned or thrown out. I suspect it will get evened out and made more consistent, if it's covered in any detail, but I wouldn't want to leap into the realm of hypotheses.
And as to what the fan base really wants? I don't think you're going to find that out by reading online message boards.
-Kender vs. Halflings: I think there are some pretty significant differences... the resistances to fear, their taunting ability, racial weapon (hoopak!).
Did you miss that halflings have a +5 bonus to saving throws against fear effects?
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
Right. It's terrible when folks who've been fans of the setting since the beginning get together with many of the setting's creators and authors and, with oversight from the owners of the setting's IP, develop the setting further and with consistency. That never turns out well.
Cheers,
Cam
If that's what happened then it'd be super. And if it ever does happen that way, you come and let me know. 'Cuz then I'll be asking for a job!
See, having affectionados or well-wishers in the creative process is fine, but it's the hardcore types that won't resist the opportunity to make their mark in the canon. As Kevin Smith said on writing Daredevil after Frank Miller, "It's one thing to wear your Dad's shoes, it's quite another to f*** your Mom".
But fanon is not canon, it is fanon, and, at best, Expanded Universe. Apocryphal.
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Last edited by Ares; 18th September 2008 at 05:37 PM..
But fanon is not canon, it is fanon, and, at best, Expanded Universe. Apocryphal.
Wait, are you saying that material in official published gaming materials, vetted by the creators of the setting and approved by the owners of the property, is fanon?
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
If that's what happened then it'd be super. And if it ever does happen that way, you come and let me know.
I think I just did let you know.
Seriously, I don't quite get your implication. You're aware this is a vibrant campaign setting with many authors and contributors, aren't you? And that during the 3.5 era, we did our best—working with Margaret, Tracy, other novelists, and Wizards of the Coast—to bring it together and make it consistent and playable?
I get that people don't like all of it, and once the game books reach your hands you're totally free to do what you want with them, but I think it's a bit much to say it's all apocryphal fanon and ego-stroking.
And I would like to point out to the viewing "audience" what I said on that thread, my dear Dragonhelm, is that this only amounts to an "official rumor" which is an oxymoron.
You're a great boon to the DL community, but I think you jumped the gun on this one. This could go south *so* easily. I'd wait until there was some sort of confirmation from WotC, not necessarily of releasing the setting, but at to least acknowledge that there are talks being finalized.
You're right that plans could easily change. I don't think we jumped the gun, though. This is Dragonlance news, and it needed reporting. If things change, we will report that as well.
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As for Athans' comment, that could very have well been referring to the recent snaffu WotC has had with Weis and Hickman over the novels, right?
Well, he mentioned something about DL being alive and well for the next 25 years and that it was definitely a D&D brand.
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Originally Posted by ferratus
On the issue of Dragonlance and 4e, the new edition seems to be relatively well received among the fanbase, and makes it easier to do a lot of dragonlance tropes.
I agree. For example, a person wanting to play a Knight of the Rose can just play a warlord. No extra class is needed for that. In fact, most of the knighthood roles are easily done with base classes.
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Originally Posted by Irda Ranger
There isn't only one kind of PoL, with all others are incapable of being a 4E setting. For one, PoL captures a wide range of possibilities (of which Krynn certainly is one), and for two, PoL is merely the default setting, not the only kind of setting you can use 4E rules in.
I wanted to highlight this. Points of light can definitely take multiple forms. Also, not every setting has to be a points of light mentality. The beauty of D&D of any edition is that it is a toolset that can be used to represent a wide variety of games.
Whew! Got through page 2 of this thread! That'll teach me to do things like work, sleep...
Part of Athas' schtick was that it was isolated from other planes. The only planar connections, IIRC, were elemental. And for those purposes, the Elemental Chaos works just as well as four separate elemental planes.
So really, why does it matter what cosmology may exist beyond Athas, if Athas can't reach it and isn't affected by it?
Not quite. Athas was largely isolated in terms of the outer planes and the Astral due to the Gray and the Black. It still had connections to the elemental planes. But it's an important point to note that the disconnect was mostly in terms of Athasian's getting off of Athas. It was still possible (though very difficult) to have stuff enter Athas (and usually get trapped).
There was a major githyanki impact in Athas's past (the athasian gith are the warped, stranded descendants of that), and Dregoth the undead sorcerer king had an artifact that he'd used to travel the planes.
There were quite a few references to Athas out on the planes.
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I wanted to highlight this. Points of light can definitely take multiple forms. Also, not every setting has to be a points of light mentality. The beauty of D&D of any edition is that it is a toolset that can be used to represent a wide variety of games.
That said, I would argue that Dragonlance was one of the original Points of Light campaign settings. It was certainly set up initially as a sort of post-apocalyptic setting, and most people didn't travel further than their own town or village. Over time, and especially after the various wars, things have changed in that respect, but the feeling is still there.
Luckily, just like with Star Wars, you can dial back the clock to any time you like with Dragonlance and have about as much fun as is humanly possible. I know this to be objectively true.
I'll second this. I've often said that Dragonlance is a "setting of settings," both in terms of eras of play and locales (i.e. Ansalon, Taladas, Adlatum). You can play in any time you wish, whether it's the War of the Lance, Chaos War, War of Souls, the fall of Istar, the Third Age, the Third Dragon War, and so on. You can play on multiple continents, and there are six alternate timelines in Legends of the Twins. There's something fun for everyone!
What has energized me about Star Wars of late are the expanded eras of play. I'm somewhat familiar with the Tales of the Jedi materials, but that got expanded with the Knights of the Old Republic games. So now there's a sourcebook covering that. Or "The Force Unleashed." I think there's a Legacy era book too. Point is, this adds so many new options for Star Wars gaming. We can do the same with Dragonlance.
...there are six alternate timelines in Legends of the Twins. There's something fun for everyone!
I remember once working out a backstory whereby the Dark Sun world of Athas was actually Krynn, a couple thousand years later, in the timeline where Raistlin killed all the gods.
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Sure, you can play the WotL era of play even as the storyline of Krynn continues onwards. You can also play using the setting information in the 3e FRCS rather than the 4e FRCS if you are a fan of that setting.
But you don't really need to buy a Campaign Guide if you feel that the continuity hasn't been kind to what made the campaign setting enjoyable in the first place. So if there is no reboot that brings Takhisis and Paladine back, brings back one of the elven kingdoms, brings back the Hylar life tree, and brings back Lord Soth etc. I'm certainly not going to be interested. I guess the gamble is whether the customer base is interested in the new setting more than the old one.
Seriously, I don't quite get your implication. You're aware this is a vibrant campaign setting with many authors and contributors, aren't you? And that during the 3.5 era, we did our best—working with Margaret, Tracy, other novelists, and Wizards of the Coast—to bring it together and make it consistent and playable?
I get that people don't like all of it, and once the game books reach your hands you're totally free to do what you want with them, but I think it's a bit much to say it's all apocryphal fanon and ego-stroking.
Cheers,
Cam
I sure everyone did they're best, and I've said nothing but good things about everyone involved in the DL3e project. That being said, it worries me that there were several times in which stuff was snuck in that had nothing to do with the novels or any other prior gaming materials.
Now when I saw that stuff I was like "oh my, how clever. But that's not Dragonlance". Many of these things came as modifications of earlier DL Nexus stuff. That is a textbook example of fanon-to-canon.
I really don't know how I can make myself any clearer. The DL 3e books were quite clever and nice and nobody is saying otherwise, it just took a few liberties it shouldn't have. I'm not vilifying anyone, I don't think anyone was sitting around while curling their mustache and snickering, I just think that many of the ol' DL Nexus guys snuck some of their stuff in that had no reference to anything and that was inappropriate.
One thing that the Dragonlance fanbase strives on is consistency. Cam said that he doesn't really gauge the message boards (i.e. this one) as a real measure of the fanbase, yet if you look at this thread, the majority of the older fans left DL once it got a little warped. Comparing it to FR, which has always thrived on change, is like comparing apples and oranges.
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