I was "booed" for even showing the 4e Core books

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by GnomeWorks

They're both stupid and things that I would rather not deal with. So no, there's no difference.

"Everything I dislike is the same." OK, got it.

Originally Posted by Imaro

What tantrum...where does the poster state the player threw any type of tantrum...like I said this story just keeps growing and changing.

Tearing up a character sheet and walking out is a tantrum.

-O

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Obryn

"Everything I dislike is the same." OK, got it.


Tearing up a character sheet and walking out is a tantrum.

-O

He didn't walk out, he ripped the sheet and said he was done for the night. That's not a tantrum, that's making a statement. I feel like people are adding what they want to the sentence and inferring big time without all the facts.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Imaro

He didn't walk out, he ripped the sheet and said he was done for the night. That's not a tantrum, that's making a statement.

It could also be a trantrum, or being a drama king/queen, depending on the particulars.

I feel like people are adding what they want to the sentence and inferring big time without all the facts.

The nature of human communication is that it is incomplete - if details are not provided, people will infer them as best they can from context.

[Mephistopheles]

The only times I've seen people rip up character sheets is when they've failed system shock rolls, but I think that's not an inappropriate response in context.

As for toilet humour, the day I stop finding it funny I hope my player will take pity on me and rip up my character sheet.

[GnomeWorks]

Originally Posted by Obryn

"Everything I dislike is the same." OK, got it.

Why do I bother responding to you?

[Eridanis]

Any more sniping at other posters, and this thread will be closed.

[Eridanis]

Originally Posted by GnomeWorks

Why do I bother responding to you?

Apparently, because you want a three-day vacation from the boards.

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Umbran

It could also be a trantrum, or being a drama king/queen, depending on the particulars.

Totally agree, the difference is I'm not making value judgments about the person's actions, such as the action being childish, without all the information...others are.

Originally Posted by Umbran

The nature of human communication is that it is incomplete - if details are not provided, people will infer them as best they can from context.

So why not ask for more details rather than create actions, motivations, and details out of thin air?

Like I cited earlier I saw some of these posters avidly defend potty humor and ribbing satire (which I have no problem with) in defense of WotC choosing a way to express their view of certain things in the gamer community, but the minute a guy doesn't like 4e so he rips his sheet and says he's through for the night...his response is instantly labeled childish by some of the same people... without anything concrete to back it up. I mean give me a break, I just call it like I see it.

[Diamondeye]

Originally Posted by ProfessorCirno

Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't have the books with me - but if I remember correctly, the 2e explanation of being flayed by the Lady of Pain as described as taking the person's character sheet and ripping it into small bits and pieces while describing that nothing about them remains.

Beats the heck out of me. My experience with Planescape consisted of exactly one adventure that ended in my character jumping through a portal that apparently spelled instant doom because my buddy who was ostensibly starting a campaign there discovered (as he generally did on the first or second adventure) that he was already bored with the campaign idea, and wouldn't it be better if I ran something instead?

[jdrakeh]

Originally Posted by Imaro

. . . the minute a guy doesn't like 4e so he rips his sheet and says he's through for the night.

Most people don't need more information to label the act in question as childish. Even if the game session was horrible, it doesn't make tearing up one's character sheet and storming out for the night any more mature.

Tearing up a character sheet, storming out of a game session, and declaring that you are done for the night is the playground equivalent of taking your ball and going home. It's considered childish when children do it, for pete's sake.

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Imaro

Uhmm...yeah, so poop jokes are not childish and yet ripping up a character sheet is childish...one more time, kettle here's pot, pot here's kettle.

I don't think either one is any more or less "childish" than the other, it's a purely perception thing...but I wouldn't defend against poop jokes being called childish and then turn around and say someone is childish for ripping their sheet up for a game they don't like.

From a psychological point of view, there is a big difference here. The player who stood up, ripped his sheet in half, and likely said something like "I'll never play this again!" is an attention whore, and begging for attention. In other words, throwing a temper tantrum to try to get his way (most likely trying to get the rest of the group to see how "righteous" he is, and convert back to his game of choice). I don't know if the person in question did this or not, but I'd guess he did, considering I've seen two other people do this as well when they got upset at a game (in 1e and 3e in those cases). Not having resepct for other people's opinions or fun, IS childish.

What WotC did with the dragonpoop was lowbrow, but funny in a multitude of ways, even if I wasn't a lover of 4e. Think about who the dragon pooped on- yes, the childish internet trolls who rant and rave in forums, making claims they can't back up, having never actually played the game, and saying things like "WotC ruined/raped my childhood memories of D&D." Again, this is preposterous and is the same kind of grandstanding and bullying the player who tore his sheet in half engaged in.

I admire whoever the writer of that cartoon was at WotC for having the cajones to stand up to the trolls and make fun of them in a humerous way. You know, if I had spent a lot of time and effort doing something for other people (mostly as a labor of love, because lets face it- game designers don't make big bucks), only to have others act like lunatic fanatics criticizing everything I did, I'd probably be a little bit peeved. Normally, I'd try to ignore it, but at some point there is a threshold of frustration you simply can't ignore any more, and saying something back helps you vent. Sometimes the only way to communicate with a tempermental child is in a language he understands.

[Fenes]

So much intolerance and arrogance. And so much hypocrisy. People aren't even allowed to tear up a character sheet without getting called childish, and worse.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Imaro

I mean give me a break, I just call it like I see it.

And they call it like they see it - you both have opinions. Everyone's allowed to have them, you know. That you think they're poorly formed does not negate that.

And before you go asking for breaks, perhaps you should look back to the "pot/kettle" comment you made a little while back. I think the Golden Rule applies - that you should give some breaks before you ask for them.

So, here's my suggestion - everyone here give each other a break. Cut your fellow EN Worlder's some slack - our opinions about a person we could not recognize even if we did ever meet them are not worth arguments and ill-will between folks we communicate with on a daily basis.

[Ulrick]

Originally Posted by Fenes

So much intolerance and arrogance. And so much hypocrisy. People aren't even allowed to tear up a character sheet without getting called childish, and worse.

This reminds me of another time I got "booed."

Back in the days of 2e, I consulted "Grimtooth's Traps" for inspiration for one of my games. The trap was crystal vase with gold pieces at the bottom. One player-character reached in and pulled a handful out. The PC's face turned blue. He reached in and pulled another handful of gold. His face turned green.

The PC then said, "Screw it, I'm gonna break the vase with my sword!"

I said, "Are you sure?" He eagerly agreed.

"Well, that was a stupid thing to do. You lose 8 intelligence points!"

The PC was outraged. The other PCs were aghast! But then another PC said, "why didn't you just pick the vase up and dump the gold out?"

Some of the players booed me. The PC whose paladin no longer had the Int to qualify for the Dragonslaying Kit found in the Complete Paladin's Handbook through a tantrum.

"Fine!" he yelled. "I'll just go read that Book of Vile Darkness we found earlier."

With that, he crumpled his character sheet into a little ball and through it at me, then stomped away from the table.

"Um...Okay," I said. "Then you're character loses his Lawful Good status, loads of XP, and a Night Hag comes and drags his soul off to Hades."

He crumpled character sheet up in less than a minute after hearing about his character's Int loss.

He never really gave me the chance to tell him that the intelligence loss was only temporary...

[doctorhook]

Originally Posted by Ulrick

This reminds me of another time I got "booed."

Back in the days of 2e, I consulted "Grimtooth's Traps" for inspiration for one of my games. The trap was crystal vase with gold pieces at the bottom. One player-character reached in and pulled a handful out. The PC's face turned blue. He reached in and pulled another handful of gold. His face turned green.

The PC then said, "Screw it, I'm gonna break the vase with my sword!"

I said, "Are you sure?" He eagerly agreed.

"Well, that was a stupid thing to do. You lose 8 intelligence points!"

The PC was outraged. The other PCs were aghast! But then another PC said, "why didn't you just pick the vase up and dump the gold out?"

Some of the players booed me. The PC whose paladin no longer had the Int to qualify for the Dragonslaying Kit found in the Complete Paladin's Handbook through a tantrum.

"Fine!" he yelled. "I'll just go read that Book of Vile Darkness we found earlier."

With that, he crumpled his character sheet into a little ball and through it at me, then stomped away from the table.

"Um...Okay," I said. "Then you're character loses his Lawful Good status, loads of XP, and a Night Hag comes and drags his soul off to Hades."

He crumpled character sheet up in less than a minute after hearing about his character's Int loss.

He never really gave me the chance to tell him that the intelligence loss was only temporary...

This anecdote probably best describes why throwing a tantrum or getting overly "emotional" at the game table is childish: it may not be wise for the individual, and there's a good chance it's going to ruin everyone else's fun.

Regarding this "tearing up the character sheet business":

Originally Posted by Cold Beer

...Opinions from the group ranged from a luke warm "this is kinda ok" to one player standing up mid game, tearing up his character sheet and pronouncing that he was finished for the night.

The salient pieces of information here are (1) that the player stood up, tore up his character sheet, and declared that he was done for the evening, and (2) that Cold Beer relates this anecdote as the extreme negative reaction he encountered. Based on this information, I believe it's fair to conclude that this event occurred in dramatic fashion, and that, IMO, the player in question was therefore acting childishly.

Originally Posted by Fenes

What's so childish about this? It's making a statement, like walking out of a movie you don't enjoy.

One can also walk out of a D&D game, calmly and politely declining to play any further. What this player did is analogous to standing up in the theatre during the screening, yelling, "This movie sucks and I refuse to watch it any more!" It's tactless and immature.

[lutecius]

Originally Posted by doctorhook

This anecdote probably best describes why throwing a tantrum or getting overly "emotional" at the game table is childish...

...and you do realize how it's different from the CS tearing episode, right?

Regarding this "tearing up the character sheet business"... One can also walk out of a D&D game, calmly and politely declining to play any further.

sigh... Imaro couldn't do it, but I'll try anyway:

Nothing in this anecdote says that player was not calm or polite.

Or even overdramatic. For all we know, it could have been amusing, depending on his tone and relations with the other players.
His was just the most extreme of some generally negative reactions. It doesn't sound like it broke friendships, split the group or even ruined an exciting game.

Also, character sheets aren't some sacred objects. Tearing them up is not rude. It can be fun and cathartic without being childish. Well, not more than pretending to kill orcs.

What this player did is analogous to standing up in the theatre during the screening, yelling, "This movie sucks and I refuse to watch it any more!"

No, really, it's not.

[Fenes]

It looks like any negative reaction aimed at a game system is taken personally - and in the worst possible light - by its supporters. I do expect that if someone had torn up his 3E character sheet after the 4E game the same people decrying his actions here would have lauded him.

[Fifth Element]

Originally Posted by Fenes

It looks like any negative reaction aimed at a game system is taken personally - and in the worst possible light - by its supporters. I do expect that if someone had torn up his 3E character sheet after the 4E game the same people decrying his actions here would have lauded him.

See, you're making assumptions there.

I, for example, have never played 4E. I plan to try it when my two 3E campaigns are done, in about 6 months. But I have no idea whether I'll like it enough to want to switch from 3E. I'd say it's about 50/50 at this point.

So when you assume I'm calling this behaviour childish because I'm a 4E supported, you're just plain wrong. I'm calling it childish because my very reasonable interpretation (outlined nicely by doctorhook above) was that it was a childish outburst.

Stop trying to read motives into other posters. It's not cool.

[Halivar]

Originally Posted by Fenes

I do expect that if someone had torn up his 3E character sheet after the 4E game the same people decrying his actions here would have lauded him.

I believe you are incorrect about this.

[Psion]

Originally Posted by Fenes

It looks like any negative reaction aimed at a game system is taken personally - and in the worst possible light - by its supporters. I do expect that if someone had torn up his 3E character sheet after the 4E game the same people decrying his actions here would have lauded him.

I suspect you're right.

I think the unnecessary physical act of destruction of *ripping a character sheet in half* is more likely to be an act of outrage. Not doing so emotively would seem the exception to me.