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I think that is the poorest excuse I've seen for not liking 3.5 or another edition. If you an experienced DM you release how spells work and what the monster abilities are.From 2e to 3.x the spells changed a little but overall worked kind of the same.
Actually, it was an issue for me with 3e towards the end. The problem comes primarily from creatures like demons princes, who'd have a laundry list of 10+ spells, and likewise for feats.
For each of those spells, you'd have to look them up in the PHB unless they were utterly standard such as fireball. Feats? Loved ones like Weapon Focus. Cleave and Power Attack were standard enough to remember. Powerful Charge? Urk! Not only is it not that standard, but its effect changes depending on how big the creature is!
3.5e caught a clue that having abilities tied to creature types was something of a problem, especially when there were immunities/resistances involved, and so included them in the statblock instead of forcing pageflipping.
Turn Undead wasn't a problem for me as long as it was on the screen.
I should not have to memorize every spell to play the game or the stat block should list what it does, which it does not in 3.5.
And, No you dont know every little monster trait and monster feat, there is no way I should have memorize all of that. When I look at a stat block I don't want to have to go look up a ton of other rules and make extra notes. I am sorry but the stat block should tell me at least 90% of what I need to know. With 3.5 you have the monster traits, special abilities, exceptions to those abilities for each monster type, odd feats, spells, monster summoning is also a pain. The stat block does not tell you any of that, just that it is is there.
There is just so much about running 3.5 which is not slick or elegant. I've run a 3.5e game for the past 2 years, and I know whats up, and it is a pain compared to 4E, just no doubt about it.
Turn undead in 3.5 is a convoluted annoying system that is a pain to DM and a super pain for the players, especially those who are not hardcore rules geeks.
Look, I had fun gaming with my friends but 3.5e rules are bloated and messy, sorry. I want less time in the rules and more time in the game.
Last edited by AstroCat; 27th September 2008 at 02:29 AM..
The other issue I found with 3.5 stat blocks is that first I'd have to figure out what the heck the creature did (looking up all the SP, SA, feats, etc) then put all that info together to determine tactics. By including broad tactic info in stat line (soldier, brute, controller, etc) I can already have a mental plan for what the creature does rather than having to make up each on a case by case basis.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
You have a giant with the Awesome Blow feat. Without opening the books/SRD, what does it do for the giant?
Let's him knock characters back IIRC? But I only remember that because its a great feat that I never got to use, but always wanted to. And of course I have no idea what the rules for it are without looking it up. Checking it, apparently it involves a penalty to the attack roll, then a reflex save. Even knowing those, I'd have no idea what either of those were either.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
You have a giant with the Awesome Blow feat. Without opening the books/SRD, what does it do for the giant?
I have no idea what it does for the giant, but I do know that by the time I look it up (as well as everything else on the frakkin' stat block) I don't really care any more.
I've only played 2 games of 4e so my perspective is limited I'm sure. However since defenses depend on one ability statistic OR another I think you could have a few high stats and several lower ones and it doesn't matter. In other editions saves depending on single stats rather than one or the other.
Mike
Oh, ideally you need just 3 good ability scores (and one very good), but all classes have a certain degree of "MAD" in them, so you often end up with 4 ability scores you'd want. (1 for your attacks, 1 for secondary abilities of your class - like Strength for Brutal Scoundrels and Charisma for Artful Dogers if we talk about a Rogue, and the remaining two to improve your defenses.)
I was more referring to the importance of your "attack" ability score.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
Every monster was written up like a PC. As a DM, I hated trying to figure out how a monster interacted with the world. But then after actually using it, I realized the 1e/2e sstem was much better for actual use. It READS good but conversely it is not so good in use.....
Makes no sense having a statblock for half a page when the monster doesn't even last 3 rounds
Last edited by Allister; 27th September 2008 at 03:06 PM..
I don't agree that it's bad in play. Where it really bogs down for me is before: creating adventures. That's the real time suck.
This is getting off top of the thread. Perhaps I should post a long in depth thread with my issues with 4e but....
I think if you have familiarity with any RPG system, the setting you're using and ideas of where your players are headed you can throw encounters together quickly. I would say that I could throw a 1e, 2e, 3e or Mongoose Traveller adventure outline together in 20 minutes one that I'd use for a home game. I've written five Living Greyhawk adventures and those took a while since they were like twenty to forty pages.
GURPS maybe a little longer. I don't have in depth knowledge of 4e yet but with the DMG, MM in front of me maybe two hours.
There's online NPC generators for 3.x so high level NPCs and towns could be done quickly.
As to Merric's post about the latest 3.0 stat block, I agree that its difficult to use. I was so used to the older stat block that I had trouble using it.
Mike
__________________ "I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for The One. We die for The One." Marcus, Babylon 5
Every monster was written up like a PC. As a DM, I hated trying to figure out how a monster interacted with the world. But then after actually using it, I realized the 1e/2e sstem was much better for actual use. It READS good but conversely it is not so good in use.....
Makes no sense having a statblock for half a page when the monster doesn't even last 3 rounds
In a way, there seem to be two extremes in stat blocks that earlier editions seemed to "achieve" - both leading to a reduced usability.
Some editions didn't give enough information, if you wanted to know more then the most basic combat stuff, you were on your own. Or they gave you a ton of combat and non-combat information, but you had to reference further sources to make sense of them. (And if you wanted to build them yourself, you had to deal with both aspects at the same time).
For usability at the table and for prepeation of new stat-blocks, 4E seems to have met a happy medium. (But it probably loses in other aspects, like world detail or descriptiveness for example, if I compare to 3E)
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
I have no idea what it does for the giant, but I do know that by the time I look it up (as well as everything else on the frakkin' stat block) I don't really care any more.
This post, and the one prior to it that you made, confuse the heck out of me. That's a core monster feat, out of the Monster Manual, the first one, and there are what, 10 monster feats?
I knew right off that bat, without looking, what Awesome Blow does, and I'm not a DM, just a guy who plays the occasional Summoner. If you can't recall basic feats out of the three core... Hint - the monster Feats are at the BACK of the Monster Manual.
This post, and the one prior to it that you made, confuse the heck out of me. That's a core monster feat, out of the Monster Manual, the first one, and there are what, 10 monster feats?
I knew right off that bat, without looking, what Awesome Blow does, and I'm not a DM, just a guy who plays the occasional Summoner. If you can't recall basic feats out of the three core... Hint - the monster Feats are at the BACK of the Monster Manual.
I don't think that's quite the point... When you get into numerous feats and spell-like abilities that add to a monster's capabilities, it's a burden on the DM. It's not a matter of where a feat is located - it's a matter of looking up the feat and keeping all the things it can do in mind. Ditto - but even moreso - with spell-like abilities. When prepping demons, I resorted to printing out a few pages from the SRD to reduce my lookup time.
These are all shortcuts - it's not a matter of knowing it right away, or knowing where to look, or having reference tools theoretically available. It's a matter of needing to do all those things.
This post, and the one prior to it that you made, confuse the heck out of me. That's a core monster feat, out of the Monster Manual, the first one, and there are what, 10 monster feats?
I knew right off that bat, without looking, what Awesome Blow does, and I'm not a DM, just a guy who plays the occasional Summoner. If you can't recall basic feats out of the three core... Hint - the monster Feats are at the BACK of the Monster Manual.
The problem is that the feat (stuck quietly in the "feat" line of the MM) is pretty much wasted. Most DMs I know don't look too often at the feat line, and less recall off the top of their head the mechanic needed to us it. It's something that could be spelled out nicely IN the statblock, but WotC chose not to. (the same could be said for most SLA's which is a bigger pain because now I have two books open in my lap)
So, for those of us with less-than-photographic memories, constantly flipping around books and wasting time looking up something as mundane as a knockback effect is a lost oppertunity.
(PS. Its easier for players than DM's, they typically only have one character to track. DM's have many more things to track along with monster stats they probably didn't memorize).
I don't think that's quite the point... When you get into numerous feats and spell-like abilities that add to a monster's capabilities, it's a burden on the DM. It's not a matter of where a feat is located - it's a matter of looking up the feat and keeping all the things it can do in mind. Ditto - but even moreso - with spell-like abilities. When prepping demons, I resorted to printing out a few pages from the SRD to reduce my lookup time.
These are all shortcuts - it's not a matter of knowing it right away, or knowing where to look, or having reference tools theoretically available. It's a matter of needing to do all those things.
-O
IMO (as well as IME) anyone who finds this "burden" to be more than they can manage will never be a great DM. Or at least has a long way to go yet and will never get there without playing robust systems.
Whereas the payoff of that "burden" is even more ability for great DMs to shine.
__________________ It was one of those nights when you turn out the lights, and everything comes into view
The combat system should be based on the world design. The world design should not be based on the combat system.
My 4 year old ties a towel to her shoulders and pretends to be a superhero. Roleplaying is not between the covers of a book.
As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
"I just want D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal." - A 4E fan
"I've got to have all that, but I require intelligent conversation as well." - Me
IMO (as well as IME) anyone who finds this "burden" to be more than they can manage will never be a great DM. Or at least has a long way to go yet and will never get there without playing robust systems.
Whereas the payoff of that "burden" is even more ability for great DMs to shine.
Some people actually believe that a great DM is one that can keep a compelling plot going and is a wonderful story-teller. Rules Mastery does not have to be there for a "Great DM."
All of the sudden, I've got this image of 4th Edition DMs sitting at the table with nothing in front of them but the incredible published adventures with their perfect stat-blacks, and a pile of barely browsed Core 4th Edition books behind them, barely a thumbmark on any page...
No. No, that's not the way it works. If the DM cannot be bothered to read through an adventure, reviewing the monsters, noting anything that may be a bother down the line... Why are they DMing? Or if they can't be bothered to pick up the danged Monster Manual... Can 4th be run without reading the Monster Manual? Serious question -- not trying to be snarky. I haven't run or played 4th, just read the books.
Rules Mastery does not have to be there for a "Great DM."
But lack of Rules Mastery is an invitation to a poor DM. Every DM I've played with has known the core rules better than me. Better. The splat books and 3rd party stuff, that's always been my bailiwick. But the core.... No DM I've played with has had a poor grasp of the rules.
Can 4th be run without reading the Monster Manual? Serious question -- not trying to be snarky. I haven't run or played 4th, just read the books.
Without reading the MM ever? No. But I have yet to crack open the MM during a game, which is a nice feature. In fact, the number of times I've cracked open any rulebook (usually the PHB) during the 7 sessions of 4e I've run so far is less than 10.
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