General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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I still recall, to this day, my 7th grade English teacher's admonition on how long an essay should be. She said, "It should be like a girl's skirt: short enough to be interesting, but long enough to cover the subject."
This is my attitude towards rules. It's not always "fewer rules is better" as some would suggest. If it were, we can all pack our 3e and 4e books up and play RISUS.
I would say it even goes so far as a per-topic level on what players expect details to be provided. But IME, different players have different expectations; covering them all may have one player wondering if it's necessary to cover something in such detail when another is thankful for that particular detail.
That's a good point.
I recall once upon a time, sitting with my Complete Book of Humanoids, griping about how monsters lacked things like ability scores and such that would make them "more PC-like".
When it was revealed that 3e would have "monsters that behaved like PCs", I was overjoyed. Finally, something there would make sense...
And for a while it did. Then I got into stating monsters. Adding templates, advancing HD. Adding class levels. Before it was never a big deal, since if I wanted a vampire mage, I just gave him spells like an X level wizard and called it done (typically doubling XP reward). 3e answered my wish: monsters behaved like PCs, but in the process became hard to run as monsters.
4e took a step back, and so far has come to a agreeable compromise. They have ability scores and skills, but aren't micromanaged down like 3e monsters were. It's not perfect, but so far I'm finding it the best compromise.
Now, you can sub monster-creation and rules for anything else: grapple, high-level D&D, etc. I'm not sure 4e is the Holy Grail, but I'm finding it an acceptable compromise between the lawless do-it-yourself ways 2e often treated gray areas and "what gray areas?" attitude of 3e's a-rule-for-every-situation-and-every-situation-a-rule. mode.
I'm finding it an acceptable compromise between the lawless do-it-yourself ways 2e often treated gray areas and "what gray areas?" attitude of 3e's a-rule-for-every-situation-and-every-situation-a-rule. mode.
I like the idea of the rules being simplified a little from 3.5, the "completeness" in the endless quest for perfect balance did somewhat strangle it in my opinion, but only if you throw rule zero out the window which I didn't do.
The simplicity of 4E is nice but the WoW stuff with the temporary powers and all the board game like qualities of it ruin it for me. I'm sticking with pathfinder tempered by rule zero.
G.
__________________
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What I can't for the life of me understand is why you would think that anyone who can handle the pitches would not find the tee vastly underwhelming.
This is a poor analogy.
I ran 3e/3.5/Arcana Evolved for 8 years and achieved a very high degree of system mastery. Not memorize-every-single-spell mastery, mind you, but I'd put myself in the highly competent category, and my adjudications at the table were spot-on.
You're making the assumption, as I read it, that somehow a DM and group of players should find a game that's as complex as they can reasonably handle, because that would be a superior play experience. Or, that people who play simpler games don't enjoy more complex games because they can't handle said complexity.
In the wide variety of games I've run, I haven't found very strong correlation between game complexity and enjoyment. There's a lot besides complexity that makes for mechanically interesting, varied, and compelling play experiences.
As a serious question, is the formatting really that big of an issue, namely if someone wrote OGL adventures and Monster Books with a reformatted statblook that spelled out all feats and abilities would that make a difference in the playability of 3.x? Too me it seems like some of the improvements between editions were more formatting in nature and books for 3.x could have been layed out in a similar manner without the need to limit that kind of a change to being edition specific.
Stat block for the Vrock, with all spell like abilities added in, and the base spell if the SLA is derived from a lower level spell. And the conditions they cause.
And the Dretch stat block, because a Vrock can summon a Dretch. And the Dretch's SLAs. And the base spells... and the conditions...
Spoiler:
Vrock
Size/Type:
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Full Attack:
2 claws +15 melee (2d6+6) and bite +13 melee (1d8+3) and 2 talons +13 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach:
10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:
Dance of ruin, spell-like abilities, spores, stunning screech, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 17, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves:
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities:
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills:
Concentration +20, Diplomacy +5, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (any one) +15, Listen +24, Move Silently +15, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +24, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats:
Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack
Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or squad (6-10)
Challenge Rating:
9
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
11-14 HD (Large); 15-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:
+8
A vrock is about 8 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds.
Combat
Vrocks are vicious fighters who like to fly down into the enemy and cause as much damage as possible. They prance about in battle, taking briefly to the air and bringing their clawed feet into play. Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.
A vrock’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Dance of Ruin (Su)
To use this ability, a group of at least three vrocks must join hands in a circle, dancing wildly and chanting.
At the end of 3 rounds of dancing, a wave of crackling energy flashes outward in a 100-foot radius. All creatures except for demons within the radius take 20d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 18 half). Stunning, paralyzing, or slaying one of the vrocks stops the dance. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—mirror image, telekinesis (DC 18), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—heroism. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Personal; see text
Target:
You
Duration:
1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets:
See text
Duration:
Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw:
Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance:
Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force
A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components:
V
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Personal and touch
Target:
You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration:
Instantaneous
Saving Throw:
None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:
No and Yes (object)
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.
Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
On Target
You appear where you want to be.
Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly
Similar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.
Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.
Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False destination (1d20+80)
— — 81-92 93-100
Heroism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Touch
Target:
Creature touched
Duration:
10 min./level
Saving Throw:
Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:
Yes (harmless)
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.
Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water.
Stunning Screech (Su)
Once per hour a vrock can emit a piercing screech. All creatures except for demons within a 30-foot radius must succeed on a DC 22 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a vrock can attempt to summon 2d10 dretches or another vrock with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
Skills
Vrocks have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Dretch
Size/Type:
Small Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Full Attack:
2 claws +4 melee (1d6+1) and bite +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spell-like abilities, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves:
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities:
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills:
Hide +9, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Search +2, Survival +0 (+2 following tracks)
Feats:
Multiattack
Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), crowd (6-15), or mob (10-40)
Challenge Rating:
2
Treasure:
None
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
3-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment:
+2
A dretch is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 60 pounds.
Dretches cannot speak but can communicate telepathically.
Combat
Dretches are slow, stupid, and not very effective combatants. In one-on-one combat, they rely on their damage reduction to keep them alive. In groups, they depend on sheer numbers to overcome foes and immediately summon other dretches to improve the odds in battle. They flee at the first sign of adversity unless more powerful demons are present to intimidate them into fighting. Dretches’ fear of their greater kin is stronger then even their fear of death.
A dretch’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—scare (DC 12), stinking cloud (DC 13). Caster level 2nd. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a dretch can attempt to summon another dretch with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
Telepathy (Su)
Dretches can communicate telepathically with creatures within 100 feet that speak Abyssal.
Scare
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets:
One living creature per three levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration:
1 round/level or 1 round; see text for cause fear
Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
This spell functions like cause fear, except that it causes all targeted creatures of less than 6 HD to become frightened.
Material Component
A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy.
Cause Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 1, Clr 1, Death 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:
One living creature with 5 or fewer HD
Duration:
1d4 rounds or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune to this effect.
Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
Frightened
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect:
Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration:
1 round/level
Saving Throw:
Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance:
No
Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.
Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.
Material Component
A rotten egg or several skunk cabbage leaves.
Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.
__________________ You can clean up vomit, but data is always messy. - Storm's Law
I don't care if you light his face on fire and put it out with an anvil... - A. Taylor
You're making the assumption, as I read it, that somehow a DM and group of players should find a game that's as complex as they can reasonably handle, because that would be a superior play experience. Or, that people who play simpler games don't enjoy more complex games because they can't handle said complexity.
In the wide variety of games I've run, I haven't found very strong correlation between game complexity and enjoyment. There's a lot besides complexity that makes for mechanically interesting, varied, and compelling play experiences.
-O
That isn't my point. I certainly think there is some element of truth to that, but there are certainly many other variables when you start talking about all RPGs out there. However, for the very specific case at hand, my analogy stands quite well.
__________________ When Perseus fought Medusa the math didn’t work and the combat was really swingy.
Perseus was a hero.
The great stories are never about balanced encounters.
Stat block for the Vrock, with all spell like abilities added in, and the base spell if the SLA is derived from a lower level spell. And the conditions they cause.
And the Dretch stat block, because a Vrock can summon a Dretch. And the Dretch's SLAs. And the base spells... and the conditions...
Spoiler:
Vrock
Size/Type:
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Full Attack:
2 claws +15 melee (2d6+6) and bite +13 melee (1d8+3) and 2 talons +13 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach:
10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:
Dance of ruin, spell-like abilities, spores, stunning screech, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 17, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves:
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities:
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills:
Concentration +20, Diplomacy +5, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (any one) +15, Listen +24, Move Silently +15, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +24, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats:
Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack
Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or squad (6-10)
Challenge Rating:
9
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
11-14 HD (Large); 15-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:
+8
A vrock is about 8 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds.
Combat
Vrocks are vicious fighters who like to fly down into the enemy and cause as much damage as possible. They prance about in battle, taking briefly to the air and bringing their clawed feet into play. Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.
A vrock’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Dance of Ruin (Su)
To use this ability, a group of at least three vrocks must join hands in a circle, dancing wildly and chanting.
At the end of 3 rounds of dancing, a wave of crackling energy flashes outward in a 100-foot radius. All creatures except for demons within the radius take 20d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 18 half). Stunning, paralyzing, or slaying one of the vrocks stops the dance. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—mirror image, telekinesis (DC 18), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—heroism. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Personal; see text
Target:
You
Duration:
1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets:
See text
Duration:
Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw:
Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance:
Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force
A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components:
V
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Personal and touch
Target:
You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration:
Instantaneous
Saving Throw:
None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:
No and Yes (object)
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.
Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
On Target
You appear where you want to be.
Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly
Similar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.
Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.
Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False destination (1d20+80)
— — 81-92 93-100
Heroism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Touch
Target:
Creature touched
Duration:
10 min./level
Saving Throw:
Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:
Yes (harmless)
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.
Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water.
Stunning Screech (Su)
Once per hour a vrock can emit a piercing screech. All creatures except for demons within a 30-foot radius must succeed on a DC 22 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a vrock can attempt to summon 2d10 dretches or another vrock with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
Skills
Vrocks have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Dretch
Size/Type:
Small Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Full Attack:
2 claws +4 melee (1d6+1) and bite +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spell-like abilities, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves:
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities:
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills:
Hide +9, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Search +2, Survival +0 (+2 following tracks)
Feats:
Multiattack
Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), crowd (6-15), or mob (10-40)
Challenge Rating:
2
Treasure:
None
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
3-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment:
+2
A dretch is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 60 pounds.
Dretches cannot speak but can communicate telepathically.
Combat
Dretches are slow, stupid, and not very effective combatants. In one-on-one combat, they rely on their damage reduction to keep them alive. In groups, they depend on sheer numbers to overcome foes and immediately summon other dretches to improve the odds in battle. They flee at the first sign of adversity unless more powerful demons are present to intimidate them into fighting. Dretches’ fear of their greater kin is stronger then even their fear of death.
A dretch’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—scare (DC 12), stinking cloud (DC 13). Caster level 2nd. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a dretch can attempt to summon another dretch with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
Telepathy (Su)
Dretches can communicate telepathically with creatures within 100 feet that speak Abyssal.
Scare
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets:
One living creature per three levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration:
1 round/level or 1 round; see text for cause fear
Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
This spell functions like cause fear, except that it causes all targeted creatures of less than 6 HD to become frightened.
Material Component
A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy.
Cause Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 1, Clr 1, Death 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:
One living creature with 5 or fewer HD
Duration:
1d4 rounds or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune to this effect.
Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
Frightened
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect:
Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration:
1 round/level
Saving Throw:
Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance:
No
Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.
Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.
Material Component
A rotten egg or several skunk cabbage leaves.
Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.
I'm not sure if you included it or not, but also note that in the normal stat block, even though the vrock has a buff it can cast, the stat block doesn't include it. So the stat block is already not doing its job.
__________________ Mud People take all the fun out of mud.
But, I could be playing a game of Paranoia where the entire plot centers around a side-game of Settlers of Catan with the DM representing the Computer, and just for the heck of it throw a Technocracy Mage in the mix from oWOD...you get my point.
3.5, 4E, WOD, GURPS, True20, blah blah blah...they're all just ways to have fun.
I just don't understand some of these arguments. Utils (the hypothetical measurement of a person's enjoyment) are maximized through consumer choice based on consumer information. The complexity of a system is part of this information, but doesn't attest to whether one system is better or worse.
I agree - although I think we're both referring to things a party will face once they get to about 11th level and beyond. Far better to distill 10+ special abilities into 3 creature-defining ones that are easy to remember and are valid in different situations (and thus can be used more tactically).
In 3.x, if I have not prepared properly for a high level encounter, I'll be forced to scan through the special abilities and will pick one and then tend to stick with it for the battle (preferring to keep things moving rather than stall for time while rescanning through for something more interesting/effective). If there were 3 "good" things to scan through, this process becomes far easier and far more effective at the table. The statblocks in 4E are incredibly well presented - because abilities have been distilled down.
However, in overall terms, I like both 3.x and 4E equally - but obviously for different reasons. I still think there is a middleground between the two that would form an ideal D&D for me and my group. I suppose they had to make 4E different enough for it to be worthy of a new edition, but give themselves enough wriggle-room to swing the pendulum back come 5E, 8 years hence.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
__________________ Want to see through my crystal ball and what's in store for 5E? Take a glance at my Dreams of 5th Edition
He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder. Tad Williams
That isn't my point. I certainly think there is some element of truth to that, but there are certainly many other variables when you start talking about all RPGs out there. However, for the very specific case at hand, my analogy stands quite well.
The very specific case being 3e vs. 4e? 3e vs. RC? 3e vs. 1e? I'm stunned that you think comparing 3e vs. 4e follows different rules than comparing 3e vs, for example, WFRP2e.
You're trying to prove your point by way of analogy, with no evidence that the analogy is a valid analogue. Analogies are illustrations, not arguments.
Some of the challenges of 3.5 is what made it fun. There was real resource managment going on with the spell casters. Some people find that kinda frustrating, but I liked the strategy of picking spells. Do I need waterbreathing or feather fall today? There is little-to-none of that in 4E as far as I can tell. And that kinda turns spell casters into a fancy long range fighter, imo.
You hardly ever got to use those utility style spells in 3.x because you always needed the same old fireball/MM/etc... In 4E you get a chance through Utility and Rituals to actually use those kind of spells. Spellcasters in 3.x are almost always nukers or controllers anyway, the difference is now there is a game design mechanic behind it that moves it forward in gameplay.
As I said before play through level 20 and see what kind of options you get and then think about the same old spells you cast levels 1-10 in 3.5, almost always the same 3 or 4 spells are cast by most players all the way through, and most times you run, out are back to the same old wands, over and over. I think 4E for casters has the potential to let them mix it up more than 3.5E.
No, it's not doing it for me.
It seems to me from reading this whole thread that a lot of the people posting in favour of 4E are the DMs, while a lot of those posting in favour of 3E are the players. This is no small co-incidence. 4E has a major focus on making things fun for the DM, sometimes at the expense of player fun.
I'm only playing in 4E, but I looked at DMing, and decided 4E wasn't for me there either. I heavily favour the internal consistency that 3E has with monsters being treated as races, and classes being pasted on top of that. As a player I find the 4E classes extremely restrictive. Instead of feeling I have all these wonderful powers, I feel that the powers are all I have. In 3E I haven't ever felt that I'm restricted to my powers or spells alone.
I played 3E yesterday after having played several 4E sessions in a row. Coming back to 3E felt like a kind of bliss. Not only did my character have a wide range of choices, those choices actually had an impact. Too many of the 4E powers feel like a waste of time (especially at-wills, I'd rather just attack normally and forget that the at-wills exist for most classes). Based on the analysis earlier about an extra +1 in your stats being one extra hit per game session, I suspect my at will special features make a difference about once every 2 game sessions. Hardly worth having!
A significant portion of complaints I've seen regarding 3E can be cleared up by not using splat books. I've discovered that that every time I add splat books to my games the game gets worse, so I've stopped buying them altogether. Were I to continue with 4E, I think I'd feel compelled to get PHB2 in order to complete the available classes, but this doesn't gel with my anti-splat-book stance.
I find no problem with the 'Christmas tree effect' in 3E because as a DM, I control what items are available. Okay, call it a house rule if you will, but this is one of those true 'it plays how you make it play' situations. I'm completely at odds with the magic items being in the player's handbook, precisely because I feel that the majority of magical items should be so straight forward that writing 'longsword +1' on your character sheet should contain all the information you need to use that item.
In earlier editions items that did something other than just +X were unusual to say the least. I continued that trend in 3E, but it appears other DMs didn't. 4E seems to be pushing the opposite angle, if it's not '+X and special ability' it doesn't get handed out. Take a look at the 1 level parcels and the likelihood of handing out a sword or armour +1 without abilities attached and you'll see what I mean. In 2E and earlier, items like Flametongue, frostbrand and the girdle of giant strength were seriously rare. Yes, they may have turned up in every campaign, but you only saw one or two throughout that campaingn, you did not get flaming this that and the other every couple of adventures. I believe that if you stick to that mentality the game avoids getting anywhere near as complex.
With regards to monsters, I agree that 3E stat blocks are rediculous. This to me is one of the places were 4E had the right idea, but chose the wrong solution. 3.5E took a couple of steps in the right direction, but didn't go far enough. Monsters do need to be less complex, but removing recognizable class structure wasn't the way I'd have gone. I'd prefer to see simplified NPC classes where the creature only gets a few feats to choose, and the rest result in 'toughness' or 'extra ac' and other simple mechanics. Each core class would be represented, but in a simpler form.
We know our NPC wizards aren't going to last long, so you don't bother choosing 400 spells they know. You choose enough to give them primary abilities and interest, then you fudge the rest. The monster manual should have done the same to the monsters themselves. From 3.0 to 3.5 this was part of the design philosophy, but clearly they didn't take it far enough to relieve overworked DMs.
You hardly ever got to use those utility style spells in 3.x because you always needed the same old fireball/MM/etc... In 4E you get a chance through Utility and Rituals to actually use those kind of spells. Spellcasters in 3.x are almost always nukers or controllers anyway, the difference is now there is a game design mechanic behind it that moves it forward in gameplay.
As I said before play through level 20 and see what kind of options you get and then think about the same old spells you cast levels 1-10 in 3.5, almost always the same 3 or 4 spells are cast by most players all the way through, and most times you run, out are back to the same old wands, over and over. I think 4E for casters has the potential to let them mix it up more than 3.5E.
That sort of counters the "in 3E, casters out-rogue the rogue" complaint.
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