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Old 26th September 2008, 04:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Cadfan's Comments on Everything 4e

Everyone else has had one of these self aggrandizing threads, and some people have had half a dozen or more, so its my turn to have just one.

Below are miscellaneous thoughts, criticisms, and predictions about areas of 4e. They are in almost no particular order.

Character classes I've seen in use:


Fighter, Maul

In spite of early concerns that this character wouldn't be durable enough to perform as a defender, he's done just fine. The high damage of his weapon helps make his class abilities more effective, and he's chosen powers that help him regain hp. The complete lack of any armor check penalty has been a quiet MVP for this character, since he can climb and jump better than anyone in the group. This enhances his mobility in unexpected ways, and gives his player a thrill.

He chews up a lot of healing surges, but he has 11.


Cleric, Laser

Temporary hit points on tap seems to be the best option here. I think this player would drop Lance of Faith in an instant if there were more at wills available, since its damage isn't that much different from Radiant Surge. Daily powers are incredible. Not a lot to say overall, though- about what I expected from a cleric.

Healing Lore could be reworded to clarify how it works with continual healing and with healing from paragon path abilities or cleric only feats. Its text is unambiguous, but seems not to match the intent.


Rogue, Brutal, Rapier (rethemed as katana for extra fun)

Its odd, but this character's encounter and daily powers are rarely used. I think they're going to get switched out soon. See, so much of their damage comes from sneak attack that switching to a more damaging power just isn't that useful- and if you have to attack AC instead of Reflex, it may even be counterproductive. So I think the way to go here is to use encounter and daily powers for effects, not for damage.

This class is frontloaded, big time, especially with a human brutal rogue, Backstabber feat, Nimble Blade, and Piercing Strike. Xavier's attack against a flanked foe was +10 v ref, 3d8+6 damage, at level 1. I don't think it breaks the game, but I think you can definitely see a change from overpowered to balanced as the game progresses from level 1 towards level 10.

He doesn't do well without allies to help him flank. I am reminded of multiple times that single goblins, below his level, have beaten him down. Its become a running joke.


Ranger, Two Bastard Swords

This character gets herself into trouble a lot. She's highly mobile, and can move amongst her foes easily, so she uses that ability to flank with the Fighter. And then she gets flanked too, and takes a lot of damage. She probably takes more damage than any other character in the party. But she's still alive, so I guess that's ok.

Twin Strike, coupled with Hunter's Quarry, creates an oddly consistent damage output for a Striker. Her peak damage doesn't tend to be as high as that of the rogue, and sometimes I think she wishes it were higher, but I'm pretty sure that if we added up total damage per combat she'd be tied or ahead. She also occasionally feels bad because her daily powers promise her so much damage, but they also require multiple attack rolls, at least one of which always misses, basically guaranteeing that she never actually gets as much of the promised damage as she was led to expect.

I probably should funnel her better weapons. I think she's behind, due to the difficulty of getting two identical bastard swords into the game while using modules. I'll look into that.


Wizard, Orb, Fire Magic

Some people complain about the wizard, but I've never noticed a problem in our group. Our wizard's damage output is quite adequate. Fireball and Shroud of Fire account for an awful lot of pain per encounter. Fireball is responsible for our Highest Damage Attack Ever- almost 60 damage with a single attack at level 5. And it could have easily gone a lot higher- there were only four targets in the blast at the time, and the damage rolled wasn't particularly high.

The fact that Cloud of Daggers auto-kills minions seems like a glitch to me.


Warlock, Fey Pact

I think this class gets a slow start. Also, its really hard to use to full effect. Basically, you have to arrange things so that enemies die at choice moments and power you to complete your master plans. This rocks when it works, but has the potential to go very wrong.

Also, some of the early powers seem underpowered. I mean, Charisma v AC? Seriously?

Looking ahead, I don't think this will be a problem long term. But at least for the fey pact, the damage is low. The action denial is crazy good, mind you, particularly once you hit paragon tier. Like, seriously, crazy good. This is probably one of the best characters to have around when facing a solo or an elite. Not... not really a striker though? A different pact seems like it would be more striker-ish, given that the other two pact at wills can potentially deal almost twice as much damage. And they still have a bit of control in them, for that matter.

Teleporting infinitely is cool, but eventually less useful than you might want. You know, after the second or third time you've teleported in a single round. The feat that grants a second pact should be a help here, so she can alternate between teleporting and gaining temporary hit points.


Nothing on the warlord or paladin, sorry. Haven't seen them in use.


General comments on other matters.

Items


I would have preferred even fewer item slots, but whatever. Everyone else in the world but me loves their l3wt. I can't complain much if incredibly popular aspects of the game haven't been fit to my personal preferences.


Multiclassing

I love the multiclassing system, sort of. I love the idea of dipping by means of a feat into the abilities of other classes. I disagree strenuously with those who feel this isn't "true" multiclassing. Its true enough for me. If I can play a smart guy in heavy armor with a sword who can also toss a fireball or two, I feel pretty darn multiclassed.

The problems I have are thus- to multiclass well, you need the following: 1. A strong stat of the appropriate type that you can increase as you level. 2. Usually a strong weapon or implement of the relevant type. 3. A third arm to hold that implement. The last one presents the greatest difficulty. This is a patchable problem, but it is an issue.


Strategy

I suck at predicting low defenses now. I haven't figured out if this is the system or just me, dealing with a new paradigm. When I DM, I make sure to give my players feedback on this subject, and to describe monsters in a way that will suggest to them the best approach.


Minions

Mixed opinions here. I love the idea of minions. But the specific minion rules they've used, coupled with certain powers, give me a sense of disconnect. Cloud of Daggers auto kills minions by leaving them stuck in a zone that does about two damage when used by our wizard. But Reaping Strike, which automatically does at least 4 damage when used by our fighter, doesn't auto kill a minion. Slashing Wake auto kills minions, but Fireball doesn't. I'd like some consistency, and beyond that, I'm not sure that a minion should ever be automatically killed at all.

Plus, minions devalue at higher levels. I don't know enough about higher level play to know whether this is factored in. It could be, honestly, it would be pretty easy to do. But I haven't checked.

The reason minions devalue is because area of effect attacks are more common and more precise. At level 11 our party will have a cleric who can drop a per encounter close burst 8 that damages only enemies, and our wizard will be able to do multiple similar attacks. That basically means that the first round of combat will kill about 75% of the minions present, while still dealing acceptable damage to the non minion enemies.

There are two possible solutions to this. I don't know if the game uses either. First, you could reduce the amount of XP a minion is worth relative to a normal monster of the same level so that more minions are used per encounter. So when 75% die, there's still a good handful left. Second, you could increase minion defenses so that they don't get hit quite as easily as regular monsters of their level.


Overall Architecture

I think the overall architecture of the game is incredibly strong. There's a lot of design space available, and a lot of flexibility.

In some places that architecture is so clear, though, that you can sort of see future releases before they happen. And that gives the game a bit of an incomplete feel. For example, it was pretty obvious that more superior weapons were coming. The bastard sword made it kind of obvious. I think the same is probably true of damage increasing feats for arcane and divine classes. The game is playable now, don't get me wrong- but I think that the power level for certain classes and builds is dragging due to lack of feat support, and that WOTC expects to fix this in future releases much like they fixed the bastard sword's supremacy with Adventurer's Vault.

I have mixed feelings on this.

On one hand, its annoying to feel like the game "isn't complete," and when these things get released people will run around shrieking "power creep! power creep!," and that will annoy me further.

On the other hand, the PHB is enormous and packed full of information. Short of deleting white space, flavor text, and turning it into a vast reference book, I don't know that more could have been included. And the game itself is a vast wealth of options and choices. So... I don't know what solution would have fixed this problem. Shrinking the game would have, but that wouldn't make me happier. So while its annoying that our Fighter had to wait for Adventurer's Vault to find out what a superior version of the Maul looks like, and its doubly annoying that the feat starved arcane and divine classes are going to have to wait even longer for aid and comfort, I'm glad that the game as a whole has as much stuff in it as it does. Even if it has to go in multiple books.


Chromatic Dragons

They still exist. I still hate them. See other previous rants for details.


Versatile Weapons

Alright, seriously. Versatile is a worthless trait. When you create your character, you decide whether he's going to use a one handed weapon, or a two handed weapon. If you choose two handed, you go for a real two handed weapon right away. If you use one handed, you might use a versatile weapon, but you'll be holding a shield so you'll never use the versatile aspect of your longsword. It might as well be a one handed weapon.

The only thing that versatile does annoy halflings.

This doesn't have to be true. There exists the potential for an extremely good versatile weapon using fighter build. I hope it is someday written. All you really need to make it work is some kind of benefit for fighting with a weapon and an empty hand, and a special damage bonus when using a versatile weapon two handed. Then you'd have meaningful choices between attacking with a versatile weapon wielded two handed, and switching to a weapon/open hand combination.


Roles aren't Destiny.

They're not. Every class travels outside of their own role at least a bit. Some a lot more than others.


Power Source is Destiny

It is. I expected that at least the Paladin would mix martial attacks with divine powers. It didn't. I have mixed feelings here again. I feel like there's some design space available that isn't being used.


I think that's it.
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Old 26th September 2008, 04:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Excellent post! Your experiences are eerily similar to mine---but infintely better thought out and expressed.

(ps. Enjoy your uprep.)
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Old 26th September 2008, 04:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Roles aren't Destiny.

They're not. Every class travels outside of their own role at least a bit. Some a lot more than others.
Agree completely.

I've got a half-elf paladin who borrowed his racial cross-class encounter power from the Warlord (Wolf-Pack Tactics) and took the warlord multi-class feat (taking Inspiring Word). Between his warlord abilities and his paladin healing, my character makes an incredibly effective leader-type.
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Old 26th September 2008, 04:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Great port, lots of interesting stuff, very similar to my own thoughts, But...

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Power Source is Destiny

It is. I expected that at least the Paladin would mix martial attacks with divine powers. It didn't. I have mixed feelings here again. I feel like there's some design space available that isn't being used.
.
Not sure I get that part, could you expand it?
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This thread does much more to make me want to play 4e than any of the more boostery ones out there. I've only read the rules, but minion auto-kill powers struck me as a potential problem, I assume I'd require some sort of attack roll for minions if I were running. I also find the miracle-only thing for paladins to be weird (I even think its a bit weird for cleric). I guess that's just how the power source thing works.
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Multiclassing

The problems I have are thus- to multiclass well, you need the following: 1. A strong stat of the appropriate type that you can increase as you level. 2. Usually a strong weapon or implement of the relevant type. 3. A third arm to hold that implement. The last one presents the greatest difficulty. This is a patchable problem, but it is an issue.

...

Versatile Weapons

All you really need to make it work is some kind of benefit for fighting with a weapon and an empty hand.
I think you may have just solved your own problem.

Quote:

Power Source is Destiny


It is. I expected that at least the Paladin would mix martial attacks with divine powers. It didn't. I have mixed feelings here again. I feel like there's some design space available that isn't being used.
Yeah, I'm a bit curious here, what besides "strength vs. AC" constitutes a martial attack?
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Awesome post Cadfan. Thanks.


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Versatile Weapons

<snip> There exists the potential for an extremely good versatile weapon using fighter build. I hope it is someday written. All you really need to make it work is some kind of benefit for fighting with a weapon and an empty hand, and a special damage bonus when using a versatile weapon two handed. Then you'd have meaningful choices between attacking with a versatile weapon wielded two handed, and switching to a weapon/open hand combination.
Have you seen the Swordmage in the FRPG? He can't use shields but he gets a +1 AC when fighting 2-handed and a +3 to AC when fighting one-handed (other hand empty). I read that and thought "Oh, that's who's using all the versatile weapons."
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Nice overall analysis. We are only 3 sessions in and still learning our way around. The only thing reallly sticking out for us is how long 1st level combat takes. High level 3E combat was drawn out too. After we get more familiar with the rules I think we will run some 1st level combats again to see how much of a difference that makes.
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: people's questions about my statement that power source is destiny.

Power source is found in three things- the keywords on powers, their descriptions, and the effects those powers create.

Every single attack available to the paladin is divine, has an effect described as involving divine power, and in some way performs a magical-ish type ability (though some could be rethemed if necessary).

There are no cleaves, no reaping strikes, no tides of iron available to the paladin. Every single attack action he has invokes the divine, except for opportunity attacks, charges, and attacks granted by a warlord.

The same is true of the swordmage and arcane power. A swordmage is going to be invoking magical energy with every single attack he makes other than opportunity attacks, charges, and attacks granted by a warlord.

This very easily didn't have to be the case. It would be easy to write a class, say, a Hexblade, that had all martial at wills, and all arcane encounter and daily powers.

I guess its just a little higher-magic than I'm used to. It hasn't meaningfully impacted my enjoyment of the game either way, but for classes that mix martial skill with magic, it seems like it could have been done differently. It surprised me a bit.
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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GlaziusF- Right... you could do that, but its a lousy thing to have to do. You'd probably be better off just spending minor actions to draw and put away an implement while you fight with a real weapon instead of a lousy versatile one.

I viewed the whole "hand jive" effect in 3e as a bug. Its mostly gone in 4e, except when you multiclass. If you do, you have to give up full sized weapons or shields, or else do the hand jive.

"I let go of my greatsword with one hand (free action), draw my wand (minor action), cast my spell (standard action), then put my wand away (minor action again, this time using my move action). Next round I'll spend an undefined action (probably a minor) to grab my greatsword with both hands, and be ready for combat again."

That's awkward.

Quickdraw helps a lot, but you still have to do the hand jive. I'm not a fan of the hand jive.
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Have you seen the Swordmage in the FRPG? He can't use shields but he gets a +1 AC when fighting 2-handed and a +3 to AC when fighting one-handed (other hand empty). I read that and thought "Oh, that's who's using all the versatile weapons."
Really? I kind of figured that Swordmages would pick just one option and stick with it.

I mean, lets say you're using a weapon in one hand. Odds are its versatile because its a military weapon held in one hand, and they generally are. Probably its a longsword. So, you have a choice now.

1d8+stat+enhancement damage, and +3 ac

1d8+stat+enhancement+1 damage, and +1 ac.

When is +1 damage going to ever be worth -2 ac?

More likely, you're going to stick with the one handed option. And if you wanted to go for the two handed option, you're wielding a greatsword or a glaive or something in order to get the full benefit of both hands.

If the rule was something like, "gain +3 ac when fighting with a weapon in one hand, or +1 ac and +str damage when fighting with a weapon in two hands," you might see a trade off. Except then it would get abused by people using glaives and greatswords, so you'd have to restrict it to just the versatile wielders.... putting us back where we started, with needing a new build for versatile combatants.
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Old 26th September 2008, 06:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Minions

Mixed opinions here. I love the idea of minions. But the specific minion rules they've used, coupled with certain powers, give me a sense of disconnect. Cloud of Daggers auto kills minions by leaving them stuck in a zone that does about two damage when used by our wizard. But Reaping Strike, which automatically does at least 4 damage when used by our fighter, doesn't auto kill a minion. Slashing Wake auto kills minions, but Fireball doesn't. I'd like some consistency, and beyond that, I'm not sure that a minion should ever be automatically killed at all.
Awesome post. This is the sort of style of thread I have been dying to read. Not hyper rules intensive, ala math proofs, but good general strategy stuff useful to DMs trying to smooth out a new rule set.

Re: Minions. One of the things that occured to me while reading your post is how I use minions in combat. To date they've always been the "charge in and lock everybody down" type, ala the kobolds from KotS. But after reading your post, I realize that while that tactic was perfect for the kobold minions, it's stupid of me to apply that same tactic to all minions.

So for my next session, my players can expect to be ambushed by a half a dozen archer minions, who will all spread out around the party, and wing barbed arrows at the group. Meanwhile, some brutes will be the ones sent in to lock the PCs down, forcing the PCs to decide how they are going to go about taking out these minions, one at a tim, while they are getting hammered on by some thugs... We'll see how it goes.

(Ps. I'm sure this is a basic 4E tactic known to every other DM but me, but darnit, I haven't tried it yet.)
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Old 26th September 2008, 06:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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"I let go of my greatsword with one hand (free action), draw my wand (minor action), cast my spell (standard action), then put my wand away (minor action again, this time using my move action). Next round I'll spend an undefined action (probably a minor) to grab my greatsword with both hands, and be ready for combat again."
Why not spend a feat to make your special cult wackado greatsword your implement? Seems much cooler, ala Moorcock and Co.
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Old 26th September 2008, 06:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Why not spend a feat to make your special cult wackado greatsword your implement? Seems much cooler, ala Moorcock and Co.
That works for me. Is it in the game?
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Old 26th September 2008, 06:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Awesome post. This is the sort of style of thread I have been dying to read. Not hyper rules intensive, ala math proofs, but good general strategy stuff useful to DMs trying to smooth out a new rule set.

Re: Minions. One of the things that occured to me while reading your post is how I use minions in combat. To date they've always been the "charge in and lock everybody down" type, ala the kobolds from KotS. But after reading your post, I realize that while that tactic was perfect for the kobold minions, it's stupid of me to apply that same tactic to all minions.

So for my next session, my players can expect to be ambushed by a half a dozen archer minions, who will all spread out around the party, and wing barbed arrows at the group. Meanwhile, some brutes will be the ones sent in to lock the PCs down, forcing the PCs to decide how they are going to go about taking out these minions, one at a tim, while they are getting hammered on by some thugs... We'll see how it goes.

(Ps. I'm sure this is a basic 4E tactic known to every other DM but me, but darnit, I haven't tried it yet.)
Wasn't known to me, but it makes sense. I'll have to consider it.

I do find that minions are "overpriced" at higher levels - that is, four minions do not actually perform as well as a single regular monster. PCs have too many area attacks, even setting aside the ones that auto-kill.

However, I recently had an epiphany on this: The only reason minions don't work well at high levels is that PCs have so many AoE encounter and daily powers. And the supply of encounter and daily powers doesn't last forever. Once it's gone, minions become a real threat.

So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Wasn't known to me, but it makes sense. I'll have to consider it.

I do find that minions are "overpriced" at higher levels - that is, four minions do not actually perform as well as a single regular monster. PCs have too many area attacks, even setting aside the ones that auto-kill.

However, I recently had an epiphany on this: The only reason minions don't work well at high levels is that PCs have so many AoE encounter and daily powers. And the supply of encounter and daily powers doesn't last forever. Once it's gone, minions become a real threat.

So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.

Yeah minions aren' supposed to be as good as a normal monster.. They just can't be ignored. So your plan is a good one... Also remember to "think like the bbeg..." Mooks are there to suck up attacks that would otherwise be used against him.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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That works for me. Is it in the game?
Hell, no. But we're the DMs, right? Maybe a quest, too, to get special wackado weapon. Runic greatswords that help you cast spells are just sweet, IMO.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.
Ooh....waves are good, too.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Cad:

I'm with you on the multiclassing. It feels more "homogenous" then it's felt before. Especially coupled with things like rituals and alchemy, and skill training feats.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Hell, no. But we're the DMs, right? Maybe a quest, too, to get special wackado weapon. Runic greatswords that help you cast spells are just sweet, IMO.
That is pretty cool idea,

Orbs and wands are one handed and I would be willing to allow the use of a staff and sword also, al la Gandalf in the LoTR movies.
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