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Don't get me wrong. I like 4e. It's fun, and the basic rules structure has a lot of potnential. Still...
Why is the shadow power source going to come out WAY in the future?
Why are all the monsters, and not the PCs, still armed with save or dies, if protecting PCs from SoDs was a big goal of 4e? It's not quite "you die in 1 round," but I'd appreciate a "kill a bloodied opponent" power or a 3 turn death like the beholder.
In an unrelated question, is there some kind of "shadow adept" paragon path in the FRPG?
Why are all the monsters, and not the PCs, still armed with save or dies, if protecting PCs from SoDs was a big goal of 4e? It's not quite "you die in 1 round," but I'd appreciate a "kill a bloodied opponent" power or a 3 turn death like the beholder.
Wait, what monster has a SoD? Cuz there's a big difference between SoD and get hit and then fail a bunch of saves all while your party has the chance to change your status.
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Last edited by malraux; 26th September 2008 at 10:56 PM..
Reason: bbcode
In an unrelated question, is there some kind of "shadow adept" paragon path in the FRPG?
An new pact for warlocks called Dark Pact. It seems more Underdark-themed, though.
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Wait, what monster has a SoD? Cuz there's a big difference between SoD and get hit and then fail a bunch of saves all while your party has the chance to change your status.
Well, the fact is that there are several monsters that can turn you to stone if you fail a series of saves (medusa, beholder, basalisk), but the wizards don't get flesh to stone any more.
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Well, the fact is that there are several monsters that can turn you to stone if you fail a series of saves (medusa, beholder, basalisk), but the wizards don't get flesh to stone any more.
Well, there is the "Remove Affliction" ritual for petrification. Of course that doesn't help you till after the battle.
What's really bugging me about 4e right now is the difference between the Fighter's Combat Challenge (which is an immediate action basic attack) and his Opportunity Attacks (which are a basic attack at +Wis, and stops a moving target).
I know of very few people, myself included, who don't constantly mix the two up. It's a proud nail among otherwise simple to teach mechanics.
Why is the shadow power source going to come out WAY in the future?
Space and (design) time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlockLord
Why are all the monsters, and not the PCs, still armed with save or dies, if protecting PCs from SoDs was a big goal of 4e? It's not quite "you die in 1 round," but I'd appreciate a "kill a bloodied opponent" power or a 3 turn death like the beholder.
Well, not ALL the monsters have "save or die". And if you noticed, those kinds of effects are only available at the Paragon and Epic tier. Besides, we don't want to coddle our players too much. Death is still very much possible in 4E.
As for PCs not having it, the problem there is that what prevents them from using it on the BBEG Solo? Using it on a regular monster is fine, or even an elite, but when you're down to that Solo encounter, a few bad saves on the side of the GM might turn that encounter anti-climatic.
And on the side of the GM, I've been permanently stunned/dazed by my players and that's almost as bad as Save or Die.
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I think the only thing that still irks me to no end is the abysmal failure that is(n't) the GSL.
Yeesh.
And still no word- how long has it been since the revision was announced?
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As for PCs not having it, the problem there is that what prevents them from using it on the BBEG Solo? Using it on a regular monster is fine, or even an elite, but when you're down to that Solo encounter, a few bad saves on the side of the GM might turn that encounter anti-climatic.
This is the problem. Beating down powers and abilities with a nerf stick until its not worth having them anymore. When the design prevents the use of varied and interesting abilities (and not just the ones that deal damage and perhaps add a status effect that gets shrugged off in a round) purely on the basis that it just MIGHT ( oh noes) get used in a major conflict that would really matter to the PC's and give them a sense of accomplishment then there is a problem.
Giving PC's balloon monsters to pop as a consolation prize doesn't quite cut it.
And if you noticed, those kinds of effects are only available at the Paragon and Epic tier.
And if you noticed, in other editions, save or dies didn't appear till spel level 4-5 (CL 7-10), so how have things changed, then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesatan
As for PCs not having it, the problem there is that what prevents them from using it on the BBEG Solo? Using it on a regular monster is fine, or even an elite, but when you're down to that Solo encounter, a few bad saves on the side of the GM might turn that encounter anti-climatic.
Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesatan
And on the side of the GM, I've been permanently stunned/dazed by my players and that's almost as bad as Save or Die.
Except if said BBEG has allies to cure those things, he can keep fighting. Curing death mid-fight is slightly more difficult. Yes, there's some Spell Compendium spells, but that's about it. And they have to be a move action away to use those in time. There's also a SpC spell that brings back a dead person for a short while and gives him bonuses against the one that killed him. If a BBEG's henchman did THAT after a SoD, now wouldn't that be anti-anti-climactic?
And if you're trying to say doing instant death to the players is no worse than stunning them...I'm not even going to bother arguing with you.
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From what I can remember right now, the only things that bugs me about 4E are:
1) Clerics and their Gods. Basicly, the choice of your deity has no impact on your character...
2) Minions. I like the idea, but not the sort of attitude they lead the players into.
3) Ritual Scrolls. I'm fine with the books, but the scrolls make no sense. They cost the same as the books, you still need to spend material components, they have half casting time (which IMO is irrelevant since we're talking about rituals anyway), and ok, they can be used by anyone.
But then, honestly, why would an anti-social wizard on his solitary tower ever want to make a scroll which only purpose is to help those that need it? He wouldn't even get any profit by selling it!
This is the problem. Beating down powers and abilities with a nerf stick until its not worth having them anymore. When the design prevents the use of varied and interesting abilities (and not just the ones that deal damage and perhaps add a status effect that gets shrugged off in a round) purely on the basis that it just MIGHT ( oh noes) get used in a major conflict that would really matter to the PC's and give them a sense of accomplishment then there is a problem.
I can't say that I've ever gotten much sense of accomplishment over the BBEG having bad luck with his saving throws. Single-target SoDs aren't just possible bosskillers, they're _ideal_ bosskillers. The fewer you have, the less likely you are to fire one at a mook, and the more likely your players will have the basic common sense to reserve it in hopes of a one-round knockout. Players will use these powers against the BBEG every single time unless forcibly prevented from doing so. Rocket tag with the RNG just doesn't excite me.
And if you noticed, in other editions, save or dies didn't appear till spel level 4-5 (CL 7-10), so how have things changed, then?
Not much change, just worth mentioning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.
I don't want to get into a 3E vs 4E argument. Suffice to say, the former was an escalation of immunities on both sides of the table (immune to crits, immune to various elements, immune to death, etc.) to the point that usage of several abilities on the player's side (i.e. sneak attack) became frustrating ("why can't I use this ability?" and so on).
I've used illusions, fakes, and the like during my time but that only work a) so many times and b) on only so many enemies. Like that wild, rampaging beast (i.e. Tarrasque) isn't going to be a planner...
Quote:
Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
Except if said BBEG has allies to cure those things, he can keep fighting. Curing death mid-fight is slightly more difficult. Yes, there's some Spell Compendium spells, but that's about it. And they have to be a move action away to use those in time. There's also a SpC spell that brings back a dead person for a short while and gives him bonuses against the one that killed him. If a BBEG's henchman did THAT after a SoD, now wouldn't that be anti-anti-climactic?
Again, those are ad-hoc solutions. Sometimes, the villain isn't going to have a support staff. Or healers. (And 3.xx encounter design is based on 4 PCs vs 1 Monster.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
And if you're trying to say doing instant death to the players is no worse than stunning them...I'm not even going to bother arguing with you.
It's frustrating on my part but the players still have to earn their keep. During the stunned time, the players still have to pound on the creature instead of calling it quits after successfully casting Finger of Death or something similar. And I can still break out of the stunned condition after making a successful save.
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1) Clerics and their Gods. Basicly, the choice of your deity has no impact on your character...
I'll bypass the "it impacts the way you roleplay your PC" stance since I assume you mean it has no mechanical impact. Your choice of deity opens up divine feats that only clerics of your faith may choose. Kind of like choosing your deity in third edition gave you your domain choices/powers.
My issues are:
- Clerics and Deities
- paladin's divine challenge
- several of the divine class abilities
- per encounter/dailly abilities (yes, previous editions have dailies, but I wanted them gone)
- removal of skill ranks
- 1/2 level bonus to ability checks
- healing
- rituals: I like these for thing like raise dead, communing, summoning, exorcism, etc. but not for many of the other things being covered.
- how daily magic items work
- the Monster Manual
- what I have seen of the Adventurer's Vault
I really want to like 4e, because it institutes some remaining things from my pre 3e questionaire ( e.g, removing nonbiological abilities from race, toning down spellcasters) or that I wanted to see after 3e was released (i.e, unified save progression and 4e style multiclassing)
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I'll bypass the "it impacts the way you roleplay your PC" stance since I assume you mean it has no mechanical impact. Your choice of deity opens up divine feats that only clerics of your faith may choose. Kind of like choosing your deity in third edition gave you your domain choices/powers.
Yeah, there's supposed to be a "mechanically" there somewhere... my bad.
The feat that you can --and they're not free, and even if you pay to get it you still share it with another 2 Channel Divinity abilities-- get doesn't even come close to the granted powerS and domain spells we had on 3rd edition.
Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.
Little makes playing PCs or running monsters more tedious and "bureaucratic" then having to have several buff spells active to just get on equal ground to your respective opposition. Rules Mastery (use these spells to gain maximum effectiveness) combined with book-keeping is a good way to remind me I am just playing a game.
And having to come up with ways to defeat player character abilities is also something that I as the DM don't like. I want them to use their abilities, and if I "pre-script" all defenses against their known tactics and spells. It just cheapens their abilities, and they begin to ask why they even have these abilities when they don't get to use them when it really counts?
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