4e / GSL swordmage: the gish we've been waiting for?

[ppaladin123]

A common complaint (based on anecdotal evidence: conversations and message board posts) during the 3.0-3.5e era (and possibly before that) was that it was difficult to build a good "gish." Whether because of caster-level loss, arcane spell failure, flavor (e.g. the fighter and wizard abilities didn't work together)or something of the sort, the various prestige classes didn't cut it for some people. The duskblade base class may have approached the gish more closely but (on the wizard's board at least) it was typically characterized as a (mechanically) weak option.

I am interested in the opinions of those who have had a chance to look through the new FRPG and evaluate the swordmage class. I am especially interested in the opinions of those who were previously frustrated in their attempts to build a gish/or who were otherwise dissatisfied with the results.: Does this class adequately capture the flavor of a fighter-wizard hybrid? Mechanically does it work? Is it different enough from both the fighter and the wizard to suggest a distinct fighting-style? Is there anything important about a gish that the creators seemed to miss?

I'd liek to hear comments/critique/evaluation of the class. It's impossible not to bring edition comparisons into the conversation but please, let's try not to turn this into an edition war thread.

[Jack99]

While I do not think that the Swordmage captures the feel of the gish all by itself, I do think it is perfect for making a great gish (Swordmage/wizard). All we need is a general feat that allows you to use your weapon as an implement, and I think my needs will be covered.. regarding gish'ing, ofc..

[Stalker0]

I think this is definitely a good gish class for those who want to play one.

You get arcana, you get high int, you get the high AC and hitpoints that you need for melee, you have area weapon attacks, teleporting, and elemental resistances. And if you want to push the wizard side more, you can easily multiclass into wizard, and have full use of powers since your int is your highest stat.

In fact, my only complaint about the swordmage is I wonder if its a little too good. Its at wills are awesome, its 1st level dailies are great, and I think its mark is the best of the three. Time will tell of course, but right now I think if you want to play a fighter/mage...heavy on the fighter, then take the swordmage. And if you want a fighter/mage....more towards the mage, take swordmage with wizard multiclass.

[GMforPowergamers]

I have played many gishes over the years. 2 stand out as crossing editions.

Talia Arko in 5 incarnations across 4 editions of the game...She was in 2e (the first time I played her) A 1/2 elf Fighter/Mage (Bladesinger) Who's father was part of a Great elvin Councle, but the socoity was very sexist (Woman=property, and could not be warriors) and raceist (Was at war with humans for 3 of the last two elvin generations) so I was a double out cast (Actualy tripple I was illagitamate). She rose up to 12/10 Fighter/Mage where she finaly took her proper place on the councle in her Fathers seat.

I replayed her twice in 3e...once almost right away in 3.0 as a Fighter 4/ Wizard 13 and it never felt as cool. It kinda sucked.
When Tomb and Blood came out I played her again hopeing to reclaim the cool. She was a Fighter 2/ Ranger 1/ Wizard 3/ Bladesinger x. It sucked too.

In 3.5 I played her as a Duskblade 8/Warblade 4 and that almost brought back the spark, but it was diffrent. It was cool being a Martial Bad @$$ and a spell caster but I never felt gish like...not like 2e...

Now I am stating her up as a Half elf (Dilatant for command strike) Swordmage multi into wizard. It atleast at the start feels right, although I wish there was a bladesinger paragon path...

Grant...Human Spellfire Ranger in 2e realms. He progressed to 5th level as a ranger then with NPC Blackstaff helping the group he duiled into wizard. He progressed to 17th level as a wizard in 2e. That was A great game.

In 3.5 I remade him as a Ranger 3/ Fighter 2/ Wizard x/eldritch knight x with the spellfire feat. It was not so remarkable, infact the character sheet isn't even here in my save pile. Although I don't know if he will ever see light of 4e...

[Staffan]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I wish there was a bladesinger paragon path...

FRPG has Coronal Guard, which is supposed to be the elven swordmage tradition. That's pretty bladesingery to me.

[Baumi]

I played a Babarian/Sorcerer in 3.0 and was quite happy at the beginning, but at higher levels he began to suck (Sorcerer is already one level behind when it comes to new spell-levels, two was simply to much and melee was forgettable at higher level with him) and I never had the ambition to play a Gish under 3.x again.

The Duskblade came a bit to late, but seemed cool and would have played one sooner or later even when missed all the cool utility spells of a Wizard/Sorcerer.

Now in 4E a Gish is quite more easily done, especially with the new Swordmage. He has too few ranged attacks for my taste, but nothing that can be fixed with a bit of Wizard/Warlock mutliclass.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by ppaladin123

A common complaint (based on anecdotal evidence: conversations and message board posts) during the 3.0-3.5e era (and possibly before that) was that it was difficult to build a good "gish." Whether because of caster-level loss, arcane spell failure, flavor (e.g. the fighter and wizard abilities didn't work together)or something of the sort, the various prestige classes didn't cut it for some people. The duskblade base class may have approached the gish more closely but (on the wizard's board at least) it was typically characterized as a (mechanically) weak option.

I am interested in the opinions of those who have had a chance to look through the new FRPG and evaluate the swordmage class. I am especially interested in the opinions of those who were previously frustrated in their attempts to build a gish/or who were otherwise dissatisfied with the results.: Does this class adequately capture the flavor of a fighter-wizard hybrid? Mechanically does it work? Is it different enough from both the fighter and the wizard to suggest a distinct fighting-style? Is there anything important about a gish that the creators seemed to miss?

I'd liek to hear comments/critique/evaluation of the class. It's impossible not to bring edition comparisons into the conversation but please, let's try not to turn this into an edition war thread.

I've played a few Gishes over the years.

My 1/2 Dragon Warlock did come close.

My Wu Jen had great Armor class (+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt), but BAB sucked. He was still a decent gish but not especially good.

I haven't tried theSwordsage so I can't say yet.

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by Staffan

FRPG has Coronal Guard, which is supposed to be the elven swordmage tradition. That's pretty bladesingery to me.

In addition, while asking for input on what FR articles should focus on in the future, Brian R. James suggested more bladesinger mechanics might be forthcoming, above and beyond Coronal Guard (which is pretty cool).

[Obryn]

It looks like they did a great job. One of my players is going to try one out next week.

I was worried the Swordmage would be imbalanced, but I haven't found that to be the case so far... I think they're a poorer Defender than a Fighter, and deal less damage than most classes. They'll be able to mow through minions, though, and their at-will abilities are pretty darn spectacular.

On the downside, their Encounter and Daily abilities are generally flashy but do little damage. They lack the range of a wizard and the stickiness of a fighter, but add a lot of area effects, some range, and great movement/effects to their attacks.

Their marks are, I think, better than the Paladin but worse than the Fighter. All the fighter needs to do is attack you, and once you're adjacent to him, you're basically stuck there. Much like paladins, swordmages only mark one target, it takes a minor action, its range is only 2, and it either shields (which is great!) or lets you teleport+attack (which is flashy, but I'd need to see it in action).

In practice, since I usually have marked foes attack their marker, neither will come up much in play.

-O

[amysrevenge]

Originally Posted by Obryn

I think they're a poorer Defender than a Fighter, and deal less damage than most classes.

Depends on how you define Defender. If you define Defender as "makes enemies preferentially attack you instead of someone else" then the Shielding swordmage is far and away the best defender. As a DM, knowing that any damage a marked bad guy does is reduced by (5 + Con) makes me waaaaaay more likely to attack the marker than a simple -2 to attack, or even some automatic damage or retributive attack.

I've seen fighter, paladin, and both shield and assault swordmages in play. The "stickiest" defender by far has been the shielding swordmage.

(The way that I've seen the "teleport + attack" mark used best is to mark a guy nearby, then move far away to attack someone else. At the cost of one hit against a squishie, you get to boomerang back and make a bonus attack.)

[Obryn]

The main difference is that the Swordmage can mark only one person, and needs to use an action to do so.

Once they mark an enemy, there's nothing keeping the enemy rooted to any given spot.

Fighters, on the other hand, can mark large numbers of opponents, and hold them still - preventing them from even making an attack against their allies.

-O

[knightofround]

Shielding swordmages are perfect. They get the job done, but they can't free+multi mark or dps like Fighters. And they don't have the survivability of Paladins. Instead they're the best at "hey, you must attack attack me" Their dps output on single targets is weak, but they have a wide variety of short burst AEs that makes them a ghetto Controller just like how a Paladin is a ghetto Leader.

What I'm struggling with more is the assault swordmage. The assault mechanic is too weak imho, they are like a fighter except they don't get attacks on enemy shifts, they can only mark one target at a time, it only triggers if your ally was actually hit, you lose your positioning, *and* it requires a minor action to mark.

Which is really too bad, because I would be more interested in playing an offensive swordmage than a defensive one.

[Kishin]

I like the class thus far, but its damage output is perhaps the worst of any class presently (Its certainly the worst of the three defenders, by far). Which makes the Assault Swordmage, as Knightofround said, feel awkward. Fate-Spurned Foe and one of their many ongoing damage effects can help, but there's a definite lack.
They do manage to have some great multi-target control and a ton of mobility effects though, which makes them interesting to play and fairly useful.

I think in a party with two defenders, having a Swordmage AND a Fighter or Paladin would make for an extremely effective combination, much moreso than a Fighter and a Paladin would.

[Paradigm]

I do a really nice amt of damage with my assault swordmage, more than any fighter I've seen thus far. When I am not doing a lot of damage it is fine because that means the big bag guy is not hitting anyone.

[Cadfan]

I'm one of the people who hated the 3e options for a fighter/magic user hybrid.

The swordmage is nice... but its not what I wanted. It is, however, what a lot of people I know wanted, so I don't begrudge it.

The problem is that there are a lot of versions of a fighter/mage out there in people's minds. You've got:

Guy who fights and casts spells in equal amounts, but does so completely separately. When he fights, he fights like a fighter. When he casts spells, he's tossing around fireballs like a wizard. And ne'er the twain shall meet. 3e version: a few generic multiclass fighter/wizards.

Guy who casts lots of spells and then fights with a sword as backup when he's out of spells. 3e version: almost all multiclass fighter/wizards, due to players realizing once they're multiclassed that +1 caster level is better than +1 BAB.

Guy who mostly fights like a fighter, but occasionally casts one or two spells that facilitate his melee fighting. 3e version: hexblade.

Guy who fights in melee while using magical powers expressed through his melee combat. 3e version: duskblade, sort of, the desert wind and shadow hand disciplines, definitely, and a few PRCs that made nods to this idea.

The swordmage is that final version. Which is cool and all, but I tend to prefer the one above it, and I tend not to like traditional D&D style arcane magic. Its too theme-free, with every type of spell thrown into a massive pot and stirred. You can use it to make themed spellcasters (a swordmage who uses cold powers, for example), but the system works against you at every turn.

[Akaiku]

Higher level swordmages can mark more than one person at a time. Double aegis and total aegis. How exactly are fighters marking everyone constantly every fight? Stances?

[Voadam]

Teleport combat bamfing is not my view of a gish.

It is fine as its own class and goes with the eladrin theme but it is not the melding of magic and martial that I am realy looking for. Multiclassing and ritual spell casting is closer within the 4e framework.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by amysrevenge

Depends on how you define Defender. If you define Defender as "makes enemies preferentially attack you instead of someone else" then the Shielding swordmage is far and away the best defender. As a DM, knowing that any damage a marked bad guy does is reduced by (5 + Con) makes me waaaaaay more likely to attack the marker than a simple -2 to attack, or even some automatic damage or retributive attack.

Remember that they can only do that for a single attack of an enemy, since it requires an interrupt. If the enemy can do multiple attacks, it is less effective.

I'm playing a swordmage, and I'm enjoying it. He does less damage than other defenders, but on the other hand he has a much easier time of attacking multiple opponents and thus doing damage at least once per round.

[Mournblade94]

Why are multiclassed fighter/mages called gish?

[proto128]

Githyanki fighter/mages were called gish. WotC designers popularized it as shorthand for characters that swing swords and cast spells.

That's what my Jargon check got me, anyway.