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They did? So far, LA has been re-assigned to Mongoose (actually, I think it will come out through Flaming Cobra), but there is yet no official word regarding CZ.
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Originally Posted by jdrakeh
Or it could be that they decided to pursue another developer who they though was better suited for the project (e.g., Rob Kuntz).
Rob was originally involved in the project, but he dropped out. Also, he doesn't have a great track record with deadlines... some of us are still waiting for a product that was pre-paid in January 2007.
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Originally Posted by jdrakeh
Or some of Gyagx's family with game design credits of their own (e.g., Ernie and Luke) may pick up the reigns.
Some time ago, Gary stated that his sons were completely uninterested in the project, but who knows... maybe they changed their mind.
They did? So far, LA has been re-assigned to Mongoose (actually, I think it will come out through Flaming Cobra), but there is yet no official word regarding CZ.
Well, I meant that they had withdrawn all of their other Gygax-related material from TLG with regard to future publication. There was briefly a notice on the TLG site to this effect, though this notice was shortly (and somewhat suspiciously) replaced by a completely different claim that WotC was forcing the destruction of such products come the end of the year.
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Rob was originally involved in the project, but he dropped out. Also, he doesn't have a great track record with deadlines... some of us are still waiting for a product that was pre-paid in January 2007.
Still, being one of the dungeon's original co-creators, he is arguably more qualified to write on such a project than Jeff Talanian is. Also, waiting two years for a product seems a much better option than waiting four or more years, which appears to have been a common turn-around time for larger projects at TLG (the CKG still hasn't seen print, for example).
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Some time ago, Gary stated that his sons were completely uninterested in the project, but who knows... maybe they changed their mind.
I know I wouldn't mind seeing their names on such a product.
Thank you for the comments regarding Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works. While I can sympathize with your comments regarding my questionable qualifications, I'd like to believe that my small contribution to the gaming table has thus far proved a success. Like yourself, I too would have liked to have seen a successful Gygax/Kuntz collaboration, but as we know, this did not work out.
Regarding my punctuality, I was offered a contract after Christmas of 2006, but Gary insisted I complete another piece I'd already been working on for him (an Yggsburgh expansion module). Hence, I was not able to begin my work in earnest until late February, 2007. I passed in a five part adventure totaling about a quarter-million words in July, 2008. Sir, it did not take me 5 years to develop the first installment of Castle Zagyg, nor can I be held accountable for the 25 years of delays that preceded my tenure as Castle Zagyg's lead developer. TLG acted quickly upon manuscript submission and had The Upper Works at Gen Con one month later. Pre-orders shipped afterwards, and now (as I understand it) distribution is receiving their copies. The publisher has had nothing to do with the delays -- at least in this instance. They were simply waiting for a finished manuscript.
Best,
Jeff Talanian
__________________ The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. --Stephen King, The Gunslinger
Well, I meant that they had withdrawn all of their other Gygax-related material from TLG with regard to future publication. There was briefly a notice on the TLG site to this effect, though this notice was shortly (and somewhat suspiciously) replaced by a completely different claim that WotC was forcing the destruction of such products come the end of the year.
Still, being one of the dungeon's original co-creators, he is arguably more qualified to write on such a project than Jeff Talanian is. Also, waiting two years for a product seems a much better option than waiting four or more years, which appears to have been a common turn-around time for larger projects at TLG (the CKG still hasn't seen print, for example).
I know I wouldn't mind seeing their names on such a product.
Well, let me do some fact checking here.
Number one, no LA or CZ material was being destroyed due to WOTC, or D20, except for the World Builder book series Gary did/edited. This is because they were published under the D20 license. LA and CZ were only published either without the OGL or OGL only, so no destruction is necessary.
The LA material was being sold off due to the license cancellation with Gail, period.
Number 2, nothing official has been stated by TLG, in fact the Gygax Games news announcement indicated TLG would be keeping the CZ license, but has since been refuted by the foolish removal of Jeff T. from the project.
Jeff T. had been working hand in hand with Gary for the last couple of years, he is the one who knows what Gary wanted to do, what directions Gary wanted to take. Anyone else doing it willl not be Gary's Castle, it will be someone elses interpretation of Gary;s Castle. May as well go hunt down the old Ruins module now, because it will be no less authoritative then what will now be done without Jeff T. being involved.
The only good thing is that Gary did write up some kind of bible about CZ, so at least the maps, and much of what is encountered, will be what Gary wanted in a general sense. Only Jeff can add the personal elements Gary wanted put into it.
So I seriously doubt I'll be buying any more of CZ, it won't be any more authentic than if RJK or someone from WOTC wrote it. Neither of them have been privy to what Gary's thoughts had been for the last 2 years, Jeff was.
As for the "4 more years" comment, CZ 2 is pretty much done, layout, art, everything. Now its all undone.
These are the facts I have picked up from the TLG and DF forums and posts by Ghul (Jeff T.), Gideon Thorne, and the other Trolls comments posted.
I am hoping and praying that the Trolls have yet to make an announcement because they are still trying to get control of CZ back. It sounds like they are failing, but I have to remain hopeful, since that will likely mean Ghul's return, and therefore the return of the "authentic" Castle Zagyg by Gary Gygax.
Gygax Games will have to give me a hard sell to convince me anyone else can do as good a job of giving me that as Jeff T. can. No one else has been working anywhere near as closely with Gary on this project for the last couple of years. No one. The next closest is Peter Bradly, and he is still with TLG and his art/maps (that were given Gary's approval before his death) are being returned to him as well.
So as the facts look right now, there is no authentic Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg forthcoming from Gygax Games, only a facsimile interpreted from Gary's "bible" notes.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Number one, no LA or CZ material was being destroyed due to WOTC, or D20. . .
And I never said that this was the case. What I said was that there had been a notice indicating that the other Gygaxian material (i.e., material other than CZ, including the world builder books) was being discontinued due to request of the new owners. That notice has since disappeared and been replaced by the notice about the mandatory destruction of books bearing the d20 logo and, in the case of the LA material, no notice at all.
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Number 2, nothing official has been stated by TLG, in fact the Gygax Games news announcement indicated TLG would be keeping the CZ license, but has since been refuted by the foolish removal of Jeff T. from the project.
And I never stated anything about this with regard to CZ, one way or the other.
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Jeff T. had been working hand in hand with Gary for the last couple of years, he is the one who knows what Gary wanted to do, what directions Gary wanted to take.
This is true. However, it's also true that Jeff lacks any actual play experience with the castle during its initial genesis, something that other authors do have. Likewise, Jeff isn't an original creator of the dungeon, while Rob Kuntz is. This actual play experience of the original dungeon as it existed during the days of its genesis, as well as insight into the original dungeon design, would be the second best thing to Gary's own, personal, knowledge, IMHO.
Both sides of the issue have their upsides and downsides.
You pretty much nail the advantages of having Jeff continue the work on CZ, while the downside (IMO, anyhow) is that the dungeon as it currently exists isn't the same dungeon that existed back in the day, by virtue of excluding material from the other author who originally contributed to the work. If you bring in Rob Kuntz, you get access to that other, original, material currently absent from the dungeon and the perspective of the original Greyhawk campaign's co-DM and co-creator.
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As for the "4 more years" comment, CZ 2 is pretty much done, layout, art, everything. Now its all undone.
No offense intended, but that same claim has been made about the CKG dozens of times since late 2004 — and it's still being made every so often, despite the fact that the book has yet to see print. Similarly, the CZ products have been notoriously delayed. That has destroyed any credibility that TLG had with me (and others) regarding the ability to meet promised release dates.
I sure hope Mongoose doesn't get this project. If they do it will probably say "Castel Zagug" on the cover and orcs will be listed as having 1,000 hit points each.
I'm sure they're terribly nice people and all that, but their product quality is a total embarrassment.
__________________ "I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
No offense intended, but that same claim has been made about the CKG dozens of times since late 2004 — and it's still being made every so often, despite the fact that the book has yet to see print. Similarly, the CZ products have been notoriously delayed. That has destroyed any credibility that TLG had with me (and others) regarding the ability to meet promised release dates.
As I have said, I hang out on the TLG boards, if there had been dozens of times since late 2004 saying it was coming out I would have caught most, if not all, of them. Their official stance on the CKG has been "It will be released when we are done."
As for Rob Kuntz, He did his own thing separate and in addition to what Gary did. I would have to check, but I don't believe Gary ever ran Rob's stuff, nor do I remember Rob running Gary's stuff. What I remember reading is that they each did their own stuff for their games and attached these things to each other. None of it was more collaborative then that. I don't remember them co writing anything together, other then agreeing on how to attach their respective works together.
So unless I find statements to the contrary in the archived threads I personally do not consider anything RJK did to be an "official" part of Castle Zagyg. To me Castle Zagyg is Gary Gygax, not RJK. Otherwise the Castle would have Rob's name worked into it somewhere.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
While I can sympathize with your comments regarding my questionable qualifications, I'd like to believe that my small contribution to the gaming table has thus far proved a success.
Hi Jeff,
You seem to be taking my remarks far too personally and out of context. First, I did not denigrate the quality of your work. Further, my suggestion that others are, IMHO, more qualified to write for the series is no way a reflection upon the quality of said work, merely a statment of opinion that others are more qualified to write for the series (for very specific reasons that I mention above).
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Regarding my punctuality. . .
I did not question your punctuality but, rather, that of the publisher. While I do appreciate you trying to take responsibility for missed release dates, the reality is that the publisher, not you, bears the responsibility for meeting the release dates that they set. TLG has consistantly failed to do this with a number of different products.
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Sir, it did not take me 5 years to develop the first installment of Castle Zagyg, nor can I be held accountable for the 25 years of delays that preceded my tenure as Castle Zagyg's lead developer.
Again, you seem to be taking my remarks too personally (and attributing blame to me for things that I did not type or suggest). I never held you responsible for the delays, nor did I suggest that it took you five years to develop the first installment of Castle Zagyg or that you were responsible for the 25 years of delays leading up to 2005.
Interesting, for me, in the suckiest of ways. So far I have purchased EVERY product in the CZ line for C&C:
Yggsburgh
The Upper Works
Class Options & Skills
Yggsburgh Player's Maps
The Outs Inn
The East Mark Gazetteer
Town Halls
Moat Gate
Storehouse District
East Corner
Dark Chateau
I don't know how much $$$$ that adds up to off of the top of my head, but it's a lot and it would suck to never have the final product of the line released after that investment.
At the same time, I don't play or have any interest in playing 4th edition... so that would doubly suck for me.
As for Rob Kuntz, He did his own thing separate and in addition to what Gary did. I would have to check, but I don't believe Gary ever ran Rob's stuff, nor do I remember Rob running Gary's stuff.
Some quick corrections Treebore: Gary and Rob absolutely ran each others materials, regularly:
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Originally Posted by EGG in Q&A thread #9 on 2005-09-15 post 1619
As to your questions, I usually made one-line notes for my duneon encounters, from around 20 to 25 of same for a typical level done on four-lines-to-the inch graph paper--a few more on five-, six, or seldom used 8-line graph paper. the other spaces were empty save for perhaps a few traps or transporter areas and the like.
I did indeed create details for the PC party on the spot, adding whatever seemed appropriate, and as Rob played and learned from me, he did the same, and when we were actively co-DMing we could often create some really exciting material on the spot, if you will.
When the encounter was elimiated I simply drew a line through it, and the place was empty for the foreseeable future. I'd give Rob the details of any session he was not at and vice versa, so we winged all of it. Sometimes a map change and encouunter kkey note of something special in nature was made, but not often. We both remembered things well, Rob very well and when necessary something was made up out of whole cloth for the sake of continuity of adventuring.
When new maps were made it was often nearly impossible to have the stairs and other connections line up with other maps, so a note or two and "fudging" served p[erfectly well. this was particularly true of the means of entering and exiting lower levels from secret locations surrounding the castle ruins.
Now you understand why the Castle Zagyg project is such a major design undertaking. If we handed over the binders containing the maps and the notes don't think even thge ablest of DMs would feel empowered to direct adventures using the materials...unless that worthy was someone who had spent many hours playing with Rob and me as DM.
I have laid out a new schematic of castle and dungeo levels based on both my original design of 13 levels plus sideadjuncts, and the "New Greyhawk Castle" that resulted when Rob and I combihned our efforts and added a lot no new level too. From that Rob will draft the level plans for the newest version of the work. Meantime, I am collecting all the most salient feature, encounters, tricks, traps, etc. for inclusion on the various levels.
So the end result will be what is essentially the best of our old work in a coherent presentation usable by all DMs, the material having all the known and yet to be discussed features of the original work that are outstanding..I hope
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Originally Posted by Treebore
What I remember reading is that they each did their own stuff for their games and attached these things to each other. None of it was more collaborative then that. I don't remember them co writing anything together, other then agreeing on how to attach their respective works together.
They never co-authored any published materials together, other than the intros to WG5, but per the above quotation, their DM style was clearly collaborative and co-creative.
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Originally Posted by Treebore
So unless I find statements to the contrary in the archived threads I personally do not consider anything RJK did to be an "official" part of Castle Zagyg. To me Castle Zagyg is Gary Gygax, not RJK. Otherwise the Castle would have Rob's name worked into it somewhere.
I hope the above quote helps here too? FWIW, in the CZ:UW intros (which I know you haven't read yet), Gary clearly gives Rob credit for his creations which were liberally interspersed throughout the combined castle. Those levels are not present in the CZ series (other than Dark Chateau, which certainly wasn't original), so in that sense you're quite correct that Rob's name doesn't belong there, but it certainly would be present in the combined castle version, which included The Living Room, Machine Level, Bottle City, and many other contributions.
__________________ grodog
----
Allan Grohe
Editor and Project Manager Black Blade Publishing
if there had been dozens of times since late 2004 saying it was coming out I would have caught most, if not all, of them.
I don't hang out at TLG but, rather, saw those claims in threads at other forums (RPGNet, mostly). Namely, back in 2005 and 2006, the claims were that the book was in final layout and/or almost ready for production. More recently it was mentioned that they were shooting for a GenCon 2008 release. Currently, TLG associate Breakdaddy says that the projected release date is GenCon 2009.
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Their official stance on the CKG has been "It will be released when we are done."
That's the official stance, which I think is wise. That said, several TLG affiliates seem to have had a hard time adhering to that official position on forums other than their own.
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As for Rob Kuntz, He did his own thing separate and in addition to what Gary did. I would have to check, but I don't believe Gary ever ran Rob's stuff, nor do I remember Rob running Gary's stuff.
Gary and Rob, by accounts from both, played in and ran each other's sections of Castle Greyhawk as part of the original Greyhawk Campaign.
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What I remember reading is that they each did their own stuff for their games and attached these things to each other. None of it was more collaborative then that. I don't remember them co writing anything together, other then agreeing on how to attach their respective works together.
Mutually combining multiple independent works that exist within a shared setting to create one whole work that was actually played as such (regardless of whether or not it was published) is about as collaborative as "collaborative" can get. Frankly, if that's not collaborative design, then nothing is.
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Otherwise the Castle would have Rob's name worked into it somewhere.
Well, perhaps you've heard of Robilar? Robilar was, by all accounts, Kuntz's player character and in-game alter-ego, named after Rob Kuntz, much as Zagig Yragerne was Gary Gygax's alter-ego. So Rob Kuntz is mentioned in the canon. Indeed, he's a rather large part of it.
You seem to be taking my remarks far too personally and out of context. First, I did not denigrate the quality of your work. Further, my suggestion that others are, IMHO, more qualified to write for the series is no way a reflection upon the quality of said work, merely a statment of opinion that others are more qualified to write for the series (for very specific reasons that I mention above).
Hello James,
I never felt as though you were denigrating the quality of my work, nor was I offended by your opinions regarding the original designers being more qualified than me. I was trying to agree with you, actually. Let me assure you, I'm not offended in the slightest by this notion.
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I did not question your punctuality but, rather, that of the publisher. While I do appreciate you trying to take responsibility for missed release dates, the reality is that the publisher, not you, bears the responsibility for meeting the release dates that they set. TLG has consistantly failed to do this with a number of different products.
Again, you seem to be taking my remarks too personally (and attributing blame to me for things that I did not type or suggest). I never held you responsible for the delays, nor did I suggest that it took you five years to develop the first installment of Castle Zagyg or that you were responsible for the 25 years of delays leading up to 2005.
I suppose I did feel this was directed at me, as I was the one married to the project for many a late and lonely night; it became my "baby" so to speak. Yes, I did indeed contribute to project delays, stating that I could complete the project in less than a year when in fact it took me a year and a half. TLG has certainly been tardy with a number of projects, but in this case, Castle Zagyg was not an in-house project for the publisher. I worked for Trigee, and sometimes I would provide updates to the publisher as to my progress. Please accept my apologies for feeling that your comments regarding the tardiness of this project were directed at me.
Best,
Jeff T.
__________________ The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. --Stephen King, The Gunslinger
Also, waiting two years for a product seems a much better option than waiting four or more years, which appears to have been a common turn-around time for larger projects at TLG (the CKG still hasn't seen print, for example).
I think you're missing the part where the product has already been paid by the customers...
I think you're missing the part where the product has already been paid by the customers...
I did see that but, frankly, it's not uncommon in today's RPG market for a publisher to accept pre-orders for a product far in advance of publication. What I do wonder is what product this refers to, however.
My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).
__________________ grodog
----
Allan Grohe
Editor and Project Manager Black Blade Publishing
My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).
Your memory serves correct. Looks like the preorder for both of the books in question went live just before GenCon last year.
My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).
My mistake. I was indeed confusing the payment for those two products. I ordered Bottle City in January 2007 and I have since received it (after a rather long wait). The other one was ordered in June of the same year... so I was wrong about the two years, it's not even a year and a half. I'm clearly exceedingly impatient...
I did see that but, frankly, it's not uncommon in today's RPG market for a publisher to accept pre-orders for a product far in advance of publication. What I do wonder is what product this refers to, however.
I'm not sure why you're slamming the Trolls for being late with their products (which, BTW they are all the time, you'll get no argument from me here) but you think it's OK when advance payment was received by the author...
I'm not sure why you're slamming the Trolls for being late with their products (which, BTW they are all the time, you'll get no argument from me here) but you think it's OK when advance payment was received by the author...
To be clear, I'm not saying (nor have I said) that making consumers wait over a year on a product after accepting money for preorders is good business. It's not and, frankly, if I'd placed a preorder, I probably would have asked for my money back. What I did say was that waiting for two years was better than waiting for four
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