History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

[Galloglaich]

Speaking of HEMA, the trailer of this movie Reclaiming the Blade

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxcBWl8-d0E]YouTube - Reclaiming the Blade: Official Trailer[/ame]

...has just come out. This film is likely to catapult HEMA into a wider understanding in the mass consciousness. Don't forget I was the first one to tell you about it

[el-remmen]

I think you may want to edit the title of this thread to something more appropriate to its content, like "Historical Adventurers" or "These Folks are Fantastic without being FANTASTIC!" :-)

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by el-remmen

I think you may want to edit the title of this thread to something more appropriate to its content, like "Historical Adventurers" or "These Folks are Fantastic without being FANTASTIC!" :-)

Sounds good to me, how do you change the thread name?

[el-remmen]

Just edit the first post and change the title.

[GlaziusF]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

Yes, that sounds more like what I'm talking about. I'll have to look that up. The key question is, would it be possible to do something like that with relatively simple rules? Could you do it in DnD?

The thing is that that is a television series. It uses actual martial arts to create things beneficial to a television series, such as consistent and/or meaningful visual metaphors and fight scene choreography.

Not perfectly, of course. Actual Eastern martial arts do not shoot flame or freeze the rain into ice daggers. But what they take from them, at least in part, are moves that look like they might.

Playing a game of D&D, as long as it's say 4th edition instead of 12th, there is not much use for consistent visual metaphors and fight scene choreography. I'm not really sure that there is much use for anything, at least not to the degree that taking the time to study and appreciate actual Western martial arts would result in a net savings of time for all involved.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by GlaziusF

Playing a game of D&D, as long as it's say 4th edition instead of 12th, there is not much use for consistent visual metaphors and fight scene choreography. I'm not really sure that there is much use for anything, at least not to the degree that taking the time to study and appreciate actual Western martial arts would result in a net savings of time for all involved.

The idea isn't that every gamer should instantly want to learn all about HEMA, but that game designers who do understand Eastern or Western martial arts can bring the mechanics of fighting into the game. So that combat takes on more of the feel of a fight rather than an exercise in book-keeping or meaningless abstractions like pressing keys in a certain order to get a particular "combo" in WoW.

If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.

And if in the process gamers learned a little strategy, or how every part of the sword can be used to attack, or that swords don't wiegh 8 pounds or what half-swording is- it won't hurt anybody any more than it hurt us to learn how to kill a gelatinous cube.

G.

EDIT i should point out though I'm not talking about 4E here, I don't know if 4E could be adapted to something like this. 3.5 / pathfinder might be another story ...

[Galloglaich]

Here are a couple more interesting characters.

First, another great swordsman, though from a rather late period, he led a life similar to many of the medieval and ancient heroes.

Sir Richard Francis Burton 19th Century - CG
was an English explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat. He was known for his travels and explorations within Asia and Africa as well as his extraordinary knowledge of languages and cultures. According to one count, he spoke 29 European, Asian, and African languages.[1]
Richard Francis Burton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can still buy his excellent, highly informative and still not completely dated book on Swords on Amazon.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Book-Sword-293-Illustrations/dp/0486254348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223001446&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: The Book of the Sword: With 293 Illustrations: Sir Richard F. Burton: Books[/ame]

and a few more of histories overlooked female warriors and pirates

Queen Teuta of Illlyria CN3rd Century BCIllyrian Female pirate queen and naval commander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuta

Ethelfleda 872-918 AD LG
Female Saxon warrior, military leader, anti-Viking and privateer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethelfleda

Anne Dieu-le-Veut
Female French pirate 17th Century CN
"In 1683, Anne's husband was killed in a bar fight by the famous buccaneer Laurens de Graff. She challenged Laurens to a duel to avenge her husbands death (other sources claims she heard him insult her), and while Laurens drew his sword, Anne drew her gun."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Dieu-Le-Veut

Mai Bhago (late 17th century) LG
Female Sikh warrior and military leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Bhago

And finally, arguably the greatest king England ever had... before there even was an England

Alfred the Great LG 849-899 AD
King of Wessex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_the_Great

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by el-remmen

Just edit the first post and change the title.

That doesn't seem to work with a forked thread, unless I'm missing something

[mmadsen]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience.

Agreed. But most people see a false dichotomy: unrealistic, abstract, and fun vs. realistic, complex, and unplayable. I'd like to see a game that's simple and fairly abstract, but the decisions you do make are grounded in reality. I.e. If the other guy's covered in armor I can't penetrate, maybe I should tackle him and stick a knife in his eye. Or knock him into the stream. Or whatever.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by mmadsen

Agreed. But most people see a false dichotomy: unrealistic, abstract, and fun vs. realistic, complex, and unplayable. I'd like to see a game that's simple and fairly abstract, but the decisions you do make are grounded in reality. I.e. If the other guy's covered in armor I can't penetrate, maybe I should tackle him and stick a knife in his eye. Or knock him into the stream. Or whatever.

That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf. It's only a baby step but so far people seem to like it. If you'll send me your email address I'd really like to send you a free copy to have a look at.

G.

[Raven Crowking]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf. It's only a baby step but so far people seem to like it. If you'll send me your email address I'd really like to send you a free copy to have a look at.

G.

Me too please?

ravencrowking at hotmail dot com.

[mmadsen]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf.

I haven't read The Riddle of Steel -- I've only read about it -- but I was under the impression that it was fairly involved, and that there was quite a bit to learn about the system before you'd be effective in combat.

Or would a HEMA hobbyist immediately know what tactics to choose?

[mmadsen]

As long as we're discussing Realistic Combat, I thought I'd link back to an earlier thread on the topic. One anecdote therefrom:

Take for example the case of the duel fought in 1613 between the Earl of Dorset and Lord Edward Bruce. According to the Earl's account, he received a rapier-thrust in the right nipple which passed 'level through my body, and almost to my back.' Seemingly unaffected, the Earl remained engaged in the combat for some time. The duel continued with Dorset going on to lose a finger while attempting to disarm his adversary manually. Locked in close quarters, the two struggling combatants ultimately ran out of breath. According to Dorset's account, they paused briefly to recover, and while catching their wind, considered proposals to release each other's blades. Failing to reach an agreement on exactly how this might be done, the seriously wounded Dorset finally managed to free his blade from his opponent's grasp and ultimately ran Lord Bruce through with two separate thrusts. Although Dorset had received what appears to have been a grievous wound that, in those days, ought to have been mortal, he not only remained active long enough to dispatch his adversary, but without the aid of antibiotics and emergency surgery, also managed to live another thirty-nine years.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by mmadsen

I haven't read The Riddle of Steel -- I've only read about it -- but I was under the impression that it was fairly involved, and that there was quite a bit to learn about the system before you'd be effective in combat.

It really wasn't that complicated, at least not initially. The paradigm of it was a radical departure from most rpgs so that took some doing to get used to, and toward the end they started adding more and more variant rules and stuff, kind of how DnD evolved from 1E to 3.5E

The biggest holdup on it was that they made the magic system too freeform for most people, and the company Driftwood Press which bought the game never finished the redesigned Magic supplement they were supposed to do.

The thing I did is designed for 3.5 OGL, I think it's fairly easy to understand for people who play DnD, though there is still a slight paradigm shift. I started a thread on the most radical aspect of the combat mechanic here.

Or would a HEMA hobbyist immediately know what tactics to choose?

The designer, Jake Norwood, is one of the top longsword fencers in the world, (though he hasn't done it in a while he's on his second tour in Iraq right now) but by my estimation 95% of the people who played didn't know the first thing about HEMA or any martial art, the logic of the game just happened to be based on HEMA techniques. So they kind of picked it up the way we all picked up the idea of a saving throw or a cure light wounds spell playing DnD.

The HEMA part was pretty easy to pick up. The weirdest aspects of TROS (like the magic system) came from the indy game design scene at the Forge wherin the game incubated.

G.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I was involved in TROS about midway through its life cycle, I wrote the weapons encyclopedia in The Flower of Battle which was the third (?) book for The Riddle of Steel, and part of another book they did. I know Jake Norwood personally and consider him a friend. We've fenced together several times.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by Raven Crowking

Me too please?

ravencrowking at hotmail dot com.

Done. Check your spam filters gentlemen. You should be getting an email from drivethroughrpg in the next few minutes.

G.

[GlaziusF]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Also it has to accommodate a running battle with a demon-possessed crossbowman and a magma-spitting rock scorpion over a field of broken basalt and lava geysers, because I just did that last night at fourth freaking level and my players got a real kick out of it.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by GlaziusF

I'll believe it when I see it.

Would you? Because a lot of people wouldn't. Many folks seem to get emotionally invested in this kind of issue for some reason and can be really fanatical about it. A dispassionate assessment would be welcome.

Also it has to accommodate a running battle with a demon-possessed crossbowman and a magma-spitting rock scorpion over a field of broken basalt and lava geysers, because I just did that last night at fourth freaking level and my players got a real kick out of it.

Sounds like a fun session. Done right I'm sure even I'd enjoy it despite my realism loving / low fantasy leanings.

Something we have to keep in mind here is that there ARE different ways to play the game. I think the gripe some people have about ... new developments is that it has become a narrower game that you can only play one way.

If you accept this premise:

If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.

..then we are a long way in the direction of being able to realize this one particular type of game which I think a lot of us have been wanting to see since ADnD.

Because maybe I can't pull this off, (I hope I have taken at least a baby step in this direction but that remains to be seen), but I guarantee you somebody could do this, if you defined this as the goal. I don't think very many people have actually tried this in the way your emphasis (and mine) in the above paragraph recommends yet.

G.

[Galloglaich]

I wrote a little blog about art and RPG's at my site here, featuring Albrecht Durer:

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer

[mmadsen]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

I wrote a little blog about art and RPG's at my site here, featuring Albrecht Durer:

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer

I'm a big fan of Albrecht Dürer too, but I didn't realize he was such an expert on combat. It's a shame his intricate work doesn't scan and compress well; online examples lose some of the originals' charm.

Another excellent illustrator is Gustave Doré -- from a later era and, I assume, not an expert on hand-to-hand combat. Some of his works are very D&D:

Merlin Advising King Arthur
Orlando Furioso on Griffon, Slaying Serpent (Not quite safe for work...)
Orlando Furioso on Griffon

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by mmadsen

I'm a big fan of Albrecht Dürer too, but I didn't realize he was such an expert on combat.

Yes that's rather startling isn't it? One of the many ways European Martial Arts have been kind of hiding in plain sight ... it's very strange to me that in being very interested in both Durer and everything to do with swords I didn't find out he was an accomplished longsword fighter until I was 40 years old....

It's a shame his intricate work doesn't scan and compress well; online examples lose some of the originals' charm.

Its very hard to find good scans of his work online and I'm really not sure why, you can't even find high -res scans of most of those images, the Galloglass one for example the best I could find in several years was that small fuzzy image I posted. I also have bought four expensive Durer art books all of which claim to be 'complete' Durer collections and none of those pictures are in them, though I'm still glad to have them. He was amazingly prolific but seems to be rather badly categoriezed and it's difficult to access his work.

Another excellent illustrator is Gustave Doré -- from a later era and, I assume, not an expert on hand-to-hand combat. Some of his works are very D&D:

Merlin Advising King Arthur
Orlando Furioso on Griffon, Slaying Serpent (Not quite safe for work...)
Orlando Furioso on Griffon

Yes Dore is fantastic, of a later period but the same aesthetic of any Gamer IMO. To me this one of Don Quixote perfectly sums up my ideal DnD night:



(speaking of which Cervantes had a rather amazing D&Dish life full of adventure and mishap, read up on him some day)

Many of Dores contemporaries in the 19th Century were part of the so-called "Orientalist Movement" which also dovetails very well with RPGs IMO due to their attention to technical detail (like weapons and armor which are usually done very accurately) combined with an exhuberant use of color and an almost desperate yearning to fleee the gray world of their Victorian culture and plunge into the exotic vistas and what they thought of as the untamed passions of foreign lands ...

Their repression lead to inspiration. This is one by Ludwig Deutsch is one of my favorites:



I wrote another little blog about Orientalist art and RPGs here:

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Orientalist paintings

G.