4e / GSL Advanced Player's Guide questions

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by BlU_sKrEEm

Rather than our normal game this week we decided to run the Kobold Hall using the APG classes, just to test things out. So far we have a Gnomish Nature Priest, Orc-Blooded martial Artists, Shireling Savage Warrior, an Eladrin Spellbinder, and one undecided (hopefully a Troubadour.) I'll try and report on how it goes sometime Wednesday.

Please do. I'd love to hear about it.

And welcome to ENWorld.

[Jack99]

I just wanted to chime in, since I got mine already (not bad considering the distance), along with Plague and the adventure. I didn't read it all yet, since tuesday is when I run my campaign, but it looks (from a quick scan) just as awesome as I expected.

Cheers

[garyh]

I got my copy in the mail yesterday and gave it a quick skim. I love LOVE LOVE the orc-blooded. It's elegant, simple, and fills a niche left out of PHB 1. I need to find a game I can play it in. The martial artist, savage warrior, and druid all look fun as well.

Anyone reading this thread feel like running a APG-allowed game here on the Play by Post forums?

[Halivar]

I FINALLY GOT MINE!

Initial thoughts on skimming:

1) Great presentation and arrangement. Man, I wish the power titles were color-coded.

2) Am I the only one that sees immense out-of-combat potential for the Troubadour and Spellbinder 1st-level daily power Imaginary Terrain?

3) Eldritch Trickster! This is a delight to see. I was a huge fan of the splat-book version of the Arcane Trickster, and this is a worthy adaptation.

4) Spymaster daily utility Invisibility Globe is the answer to one of my wizard-player's biggest gripes: no more Mass Invisibility.

5) We never used crafting rules in 3.5E, and we probably won't use them in 4E. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that if somebody randomly requests it, I've got a good framework here.

6) It is my belief that the inclusion of ninjas, no matter how out of place they may be, improves any book.

7) Really? Is that all the Wildshaper gets? I think there's a missed opportunity here; Mouse's approach to wild-shaping is fantastic, IMO, and I wish this were a 30-level class with a wider range of shifting options. I am very happy that there is no Monster Manual look-up's here. In other words, this paragon class is so cool, I wish there was more of it.

8) Best bard ever. I can't believe it, but I want to play one. As someone who has always loved the concept of the bard, but always hated the execution, this is a huge boon.

9) I know that the Spellbinder != Illusionist (well, not exactly), but I do wish there was more illusory goodness. There are an awful lot of direct attack spells, when I think this would have been a good opportunity to try crafting a class whose attacks are always status affects of some sort. It will be harder to fluff this as an Illutionist, IMHO. I AM happy that illusions aren't the automatic "you are now out of the fight" spells they were in 3.x. Well done.

10) This is gonna sound weird, but from a min-max perspective, I see shire halfling paladins and warlocks in my future.

EDIT:

11) Martial Artists can use weapons with most of their skills? I can have Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon swordfights? Sweet.

[JustKim]

I got mine today and it looks great. I haven't had time to read everything but the monk, druid, bard, crafting rules and lingering wounds inspire me and I'd like to try them. Unfortunately, I do not have any errors to report.

Also, I really like Joan Guardiet's artwork in the book.

[Sphynx]

Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book. Seriously, it's WAY better than what WotC has been producing lately. Maybe not from an Art point of view, but nicely balanced and sensible (I'll avoid my regular tirade of how stupid Swordmages are, and pretty much everything else in the FR Player's Guide).

The book is awesome. I not only approve its use in the game I run, but encourage it (while having banned the FR stuff and Dragon stuff entirely to-date).

Here are the issues I see so far (and I'll try not to repeat things already said, but 5 pages of posts, I'm sure to make that mistake at least once without having an errata next to me).

Monk. Errr.... Martial Artist.

1. Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether. I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks. So, my House rule is to double the bonus (2, 4, 6) and give a bonus to reflexes (1, 2, 3), unless you don a piece of armour or would not normally receive a Dex bonus to your Armour. Class loses the auto +1 Reflex, receiving only Will and Fort bonuses. This still isn't as effective as Leather with Enhancements, and I fear that even with this House Rule, everyone is going to want Leather (not only for the enhancement, but because alot of nice properties, such as Sylvan Leather)
2. I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier. You can split those points up per-encounter as a Free Action to give 'enhancements' to all unarmed attacks for that particular Turn (not round). You can not have an enhancement greater than your Wisdom Modifier from this, at any time. Ie: 11th level with a Wisdom of 16 has 5+3 points (8). On his first turn he can spend up to 3 (Wisdom Modifier) of his Chi Battery on an Unarmed Enhancement. This applies to all attacks (even Quick Strike) on that Turn.
3. Now that Magical Armour and Weapons have been handled without having to actually wear/wield either, I adjust Powers. The first Power I adjust is Writhing Serpent Strike. Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage). Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade :P). Writing Serpent Strike: Dex to Attack Roll instead of Wisdom. Wisdom still used for damage.
4. Same applies to Powers such Choker Grabs His Prey, Crippling Blow, Debilitating Strike, Agonizing Strike, Hammer Blow, Kraken Grasps Prey, Stunning Palm, and Quivering Fist.
5. Demon Dance - Yes, you've addressed it nicely, but taken it out of its position to do so. Minions are the reason that Demon Dance is so... overkill. Minions can not be harmed if Missed. Minions are not what this Power was intended for. I've changed the text to the following:
   
   Close Burst 2
   Attack: Wisdom vs Fortitude (Auto Damage is Bad)
   Hit: 1[W] Damage. Treat this hit as a Missed Attack.
6. Leg Sweep: Added 1[W] Damage and the following text added to the end of the 1 sentence. unless the Target makes a Saving Throw.

That's all for the Monk.

Druid.... err.... Nature Priest

1. Flaming Blade -> Flaming Spear now.

That's all. I love the Druid as is, but haven't had time to fully analyze the higher level conjurations yet.

Barbarian Berserker

1. Replaced Boundless Endurance (level 2 Utility) with a Power to Regenerate 2
2. Replaced Iron Warriors (level 16 utility) with a Power to Regenerate 5

Sorry, in my mind, Regenerate was just something all Barbarians had in my early games, and I'm not a huge fan of classes sharing the same Powers anyhows. :P Other than that, a very very nicely done class (I prefer it to the one I see on the WotC site/Dragon article).

Troubadour: Banned from my games. Too many melee attacks based on Charisma to hit. While I'm ok with the concept of someone being so distracting that people reveal their weaknesses, the chance to hit those weaknesses is still your Dexterity or Strength. Slipping past defenses (via Charisma) would be a negative to that defense (equal to the Charisma Modifier?). This would be over-kill since stacking 2 attributes together for Attacks would be the most powerful thing any class has, but it has to take the physical ability to hit into account. Best solution would probably have been damage-less effects based on Charisma (dazed would be very common usage of Charisma), allowing the other party members to benefit from that distraction. As-is, the Troubadour is, for me, thematically unsound. Fortunately, nobody I know actually likes (or ever liked) playing a Bard anyhows (cept maybe in the game Bard's Tale, the originals, not the later version :P).

Regardless, much thanks for the book. I look forward to my hard-copy arriving in the mail soon. Money well spent on a book well done.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Sphynx

Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book.

Appreciate that. And no worries.

[*]Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether. I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks.

Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists can wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus.

[*]I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier...

Hmm. A little more complex on the record-keeping than I like, but if it works for you, fantastic.

Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage). Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade :P).

Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour. Me, since the monk's powers are technically prayers and the troubadour's are technically spells--even if they happen to also involve attacks--I've got no objection to using Wisdom or Charisma.

(Uh, obviously, or I wouldn't have written 'em that way. )

But again, if you've found a solution that works for you, that's great. I'm glad you were able to get as much use out of the book as you have.

[Sphynx]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists can wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus.

I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type. Well stated.

Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour.

I don't dislike the Monk at all (minus the Wisdom based melee attacks), I think it's better written than I would have done.

[GMforPowergamers]

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

[Mathew_Freeman]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

I sense a Paragon path coming on! I'd love to see someone stat that up.

[Sphynx]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Hmm. A little more complex on the record-keeping than I like, but if it works for you, fantastic.

LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)

Just pointing out that it's not too complex an idea.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Sphynx

I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type. Well stated.

If it makes you feel any better, I almost forgot that as well when I was designing the class. Had I done so, they would have had a higher AC bonus, and would have wound up being very, very broken.

Nice to know I occasionally find my mistakes before the book is published.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

Not Elan specifically; I just envisioned bards the way I've usually seen them played, and tried to design a class that would make that concept work.

Originally Posted by Sphynx

LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)

Just pointing out that it's not too complex an idea.

Oh, I didn't say it was too complex to exist; just more complex than I personally prefer.

[Jack99]

Okay, I finally got to read the book. Ari, you did a great job. You can and should rightfully be proud of it. Sure, there are a few hick-ups in some of the powers (most of which have been mentioned here), but nothing that a little playtesting or math can't fix.

Unless I missed a lot on that read-through, the book will definitely be put on the allowed list for my campaigns, creating a lot more options for the players, as I kill their characters.

Thanks for writing this.

[Quantarum]

Very pleased with the book and the classes have my players excited. After we finish KotS and shift back to my refurbished homebrew I have a feeling I'll have a martial artist and a troubadour in the new group.
Bravo Ari!
-Q.

[Jeremy757]

Originally Posted by tsadkiel

Any way for a Martial Artist to gain an enhancement bonus on their Chi powers? I don't see any reference to any sort of implement. Troubadors have a similar problem, since they don't have any published implements, but other magic items can be reskinned.

I was thinking about this and the Dragon article on Warforged made me think it wouldn't be to hard to come up with a enchant magic tattoo ritual that works like enchant magic item for Chi martial artists. It would allow you to basically embed a magical weapon effect in your body that you can use with your unarmed attacks.