General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Perhaps the simplest answer is to just let my players choose if they want to swap out a Spellbinder spell for one from the article. I don't think I would let Wizards go the other way though and take Spellbinder spells in lieu of theirs.
Thanks -- comments from everyone else are welcome as well.
Melfast
I planned on correcting the whole Imaginary Terrain problem with this. Move Imaginary Terrain to 1st-Level Daily where it belongs, and supplement the 1st-Level Encounter and 1st-Level Daily with the ones from the Dragon Magazine article. So that the Spellbinder power list actually went....
Well, it works until the official errata comes out, at least.
EDIT: I never did get around to thanking Ari for all of the hard work he's put into this book, both before and after publication. I was so busy jonesing for it before Oct 1 and incorporating it into my home-brew campaigns after Oct 1 that I forgot my manners. Thank you, Ari. Thank you.
Last edited by CrimsonHawk; 5th October 2008 at 09:55 AM..
This is the only non-WotC book I have every bought (actually - on preorder through my FLGS) - I have been through the review and previews - I have read peoples comments here, I think that some are being overly critical as not all of the errors should be placed on Ari's shoulders - editing missed things too. If I can happily accept the plethora of errors that the Core books contain then the few found by those here are as nothing. I am really looking forward to this book - I am curious about how well the classes actually play compared to the core classes. I also look forward to any web enhancements you manage to get out.
Nobody seems to have mentioned it - Klaus big thanks for offering up art for the Web enhancement - it will make it nice and special. Love the cover.
I liked the effort put in the Crafting system and I think I might use Lingering Wounds in my game. However, aren't conjurations a bit strong for Encounter powers? Especially the Hunting Wolf pack, being able to attack up to four people as a minor action?
Also would you allow monsters of at least 10 Int to know that if they knock the Druid away from the conjurations they will vanish?
Hey, guys. I appreciate the thoughts, both positive and negative.
As far as the illusion spells from Dragon, yep, I'd allow them, or at least allow players to trade for them. If Dragon was Open Content, I'd have added at least some of them to the illusionist as soon as the article came out.
As far as demon dance, I've been thinking about it since yesterday. I'd really like to make it a power that's cool and that people want to take, but that isn't overpowered (obviously), and that's not just a copy of the fighter's rain of steel. I've come up with something that I think is kind of interesting, and since I promised you folks input, I figured I'd run it by you all.
Demon Dance Martial Artist Attack 1 You launch into a sequence of abrupt and unpredictable moves, stepping this way and that, turning the area around you into a veritable storm of fists and feet.
Daily • Stance, Divine, Weapon
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack (other than quick strike), you also deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier to a second target (which cannot be the same creature that triggered this power). The second target must be within 2 squares of you.
Essentially, it's a stance that allows you to Cleave (as the fighter at-will power). It lets you Cleave off any attack, has a broader range, and doesn't require the targets be adjacent--but it's a daily power instead, so it only functions for (at most) one encounter.
I think this is worth taking, and still plays into the monk's whole "do damage to everyone in creation" shtick, without turning the power into an unbeatable minion sweeper. And it lets me keep the power at 1st level.
Thoughts, folks? I'm heavily leaning toward going this route, but if someone points out a serious problem or thematic concern, I'm happy to listen.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I too haven't had time to digest the whole book, but I thought it was funny that my initial impression is almost the opposite....
I love the Martial Artist {refered to as 'monk' at least once in the book }, thought the Nature Priest was perfect, and wasn't impressed with the Troubadour...
But that could be due to working with Chimera on an alt-Bard that more closely mirrors the 3x version as well as our opinion of what a Bard should be able to do
Mouseferatu, yes.. I will be glad to put in my two cents after getting a better grasp on the classes!
The rewritten Demon Dance {above} looks to my unpracticed eye as a good rewrite...altho very much the *right* move in a mob style encounter. DM's would have to be sure to provide the opportunity for the power to be usefull. I don't know if I like powers that slant encounter design that much, altho throwing a handfull of extra minions really isn't that hard
Side thought: instead of range 2, perhaps range 'adjacent to either yourself or the target of melee attack'... allowing for a flavor of smashing your enemies into thier allies.
__________________
"Words take on strange and wonderful powers when they are written down.
Context and intonation disappear, and the words sit in a void to be construed according to the mood, intelligence and socio-political leanings of the reader."
--- Siri Agrell
First, it says "Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack"
So, if I use an ability like Dragon Tail Slap or Serpent Bends Aside that are immediate reactions, does the stance allow me to do the extra damage from Demon Dance? I'd think yes, and it is not too overpowered since I only get one immediate action per round.
Second, can I maintain the stance while I grabbing someone or have someone grabbed? Again, I imagine so since the descriptions are just fluff to give you a visual image of how a power might work.
So, I grab Goblin A or do damage to Goblin A while maintaining the grab, and do Dex Mod damage to the Goblin Hexer 2 squares away applying the Demon Dance power.
Good points, Melfast. While I agree those wouldn't be broken in and of themselves, it opens the door to other abuses, like opportunity attacks or extra attacks granted by warlord powers.
My instinct is to alter the phrasing of the power so it says any time you deal damage with an attack on your own turn. But again, that's just my first thought, and I'm willing to field other thoughts.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
Too bad about the editing mistakes, but keep in mind that this book has gone through a couple of publishers so there was more room for mixups. Also, people don't have 10 years of experience with the 4E system yet, so it's harder to notice that something 'isn't right'.
One thing was mentioned that has me curious: lingering damage rules? Can someone post a short summary of what this is?
Demon Dance Martial Artist Attack 1 You launch into a sequence of abrupt and unpredictable moves, stepping this way and that, turning the area around you into a veritable storm of fists and feet.
Daily • Stance, Divine, Weapon
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack (other than quick strike), you also deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier to a second target (which cannot be the same creature that triggered this power). The second target must be within 2 squares of you.
I really like the flavor of Demon Dance Mk2, but the new version might be a little weak for a daily. Instead, I'd like to see this version kept as an encounter power. Killing stray minions as the MA damages the bad guys fits right in with the flavor and is not overpowering, even every encounter.
For my argument though, I'm assuming the extra damage from Demon Dance is only suppose to occur once per power and not for every opponent injured. As written it could be assumed that if I Flurry of Fists and hit three monsters I then get to damage three extra creatures with Demon Dance. I think this should be clarified.
Completely off topic, is the Troubadour's Cause Fear ability really supposed to be based off Wisdom like the Ceric version? Seems a little strange to me. Personally, I think the attack should be Charisma based, but have the extra squares moved based off Wisdom.
I'm really looking forward to this book. To my mind, it fills gaps that should never have been left vacant in the PHB in the first place.
Questions:
1. When will the hard copy version be available in the UK? {Gollum voice}We wants it now, Precious!{/Gollum voice}
2. Will a compiled errata be available online without having to download the entire PDF version of the book? If so, where? And if you don't mind me asking, when?
Thanks,
Zander
__________________ "What Simkin does, he does for his own amusement." Legacy of the Darksword by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman
"Some of us think that Gygaxian fantasy, a rich and meaty stew of great fantasy authors spiced with classical mythology and medieval legend, just tastes better than WOTC's homogeneous corporate gruel." Clavis
I'm afraid I can't easily answer either of those. I'll try to direct Joe Browning to the thread again (if he's not watching already), and hopefully he can provide more info.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
For my argument though, I'm assuming the extra damage from Demon Dance is only suppose to occur once per power and not for every opponent injured. As written it could be assumed that if I Flurry of Fists and hit three monsters I then get to damage three extra creatures with Demon Dance. I think this should be clarified.
Good point, and it will, indeed, be clarified.
Quote:
Completely off topic, is the Troubadour's Cause Fear ability really supposed to be based off Wisdom like the Ceric version? Seems a little strange to me. Personally, I think the attack should be Charisma based, but have the extra squares moved based off Wisdom.
I'm going to go bang my head against a wall for a while, now.
No, it shouldn't be Wisdom-based. The attack is Charisma-based, and the extra movement is Intelligence-based.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
Thanks for the super speedy reply and for pointing Joe Browning this way.
If it makes any difference, I'm pretty sure that it will sell like hotcakes in the UK. I'm the organiser of one of the largest D&D clubs in the country (we have c. 200 members), and that's the consensus so far.
As for a compiled errata available online, all I can say is that it would be greatly appreciated.
Z
__________________ "What Simkin does, he does for his own amusement." Legacy of the Darksword by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman
"Some of us think that Gygaxian fantasy, a rich and meaty stew of great fantasy authors spiced with classical mythology and medieval legend, just tastes better than WOTC's homogeneous corporate gruel." Clavis
Questions:
1. When will the hard copy version be available in the UK? {Gollum voice}We wants it now, Precious!{/Gollum voice}
The book is making its way through the distribution chain right now. Books should start hitting FLGS next week.
Quote:
2. Will a compiled errata be available online without having to download the entire PDF version of the book? If so, where? And if you don't mind me asking, when?
Once Ari's comfortable that he's corrected the most important issues, we'll put up a free PDF for anyone to download. I suspect that it shouldn't take more than a week, and more than likely, it will be within a few days.
Quote:
If it makes any difference, I'm pretty sure that it will sell like hotcakes in the UK. I'm the organiser of one of the largest D&D clubs in the country (we have c. 200 members), and that's the consensus so far.
That's definitely good news to my ears. I think Ari did a bang-up job for the the book and people will have a lot of fun using it.
Another bit of errata I have noticed is that several of the Paragon Paths have a feature given at 17th rather than 16th level: Stormwalker, Master of Flowers, Master of Four winds, Mystic Healer & Acrobat.
Another bit of errata I have noticed is that several of the Paragon Paths have a feature given at 17th rather than 16th level: Stormwalker, Master of Flowers, Master of Four winds, Mystic Healer & Acrobat.
Yeah, we caught that one a few days ago, and it's in the errata. Thank you, though.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
Once Ari's comfortable that he's corrected the most important issues, we'll put up a free PDF for anyone to download. I suspect that it shouldn't take more than a week, and more than likely, it will be within a few days.
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