4e / GSL Advanced Player's Guide questions

[Spatula]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Most of the mistakes I found are noticed here, especialy the Martial Art minnor attack, but they have a bunch of stances that minnor sustain...and the Damage is like hunters quarry when I would expect...since it can miss it would be like sneak att (2d6...3d6...5d6).

I don't see how quick-strike is a mistake. It's a different way of looking at the bonus striker damage, which is an all or nothing affair with the ranger, rogue, & warlock. The martial artist instead makes it as a seperate attack roll, which increases the chance of dealing some damage to the target.

[jgbrowning]

Originally Posted by Filcher

Is there really that much errata? Is there a compiled list somewhere?

Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.

joe b.

[Nikosandros]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

I understand everyone has different purchasing inputs and that not everyone will be satisfied with our solution which I believe to be fairly industry standard.

I certainly don't begrudge your choice. I might be spoiled here by SJ Games fantastic behavior with their PDF.

Also, let me tell you that I have ordered in the past from your online store and the customer service and the quality of the items were truly top notch...

[Beholden]

Just to add to my list of questions/possible errata:

1) Is Soothe the Savage Beast really supposed to be Int based? I assume this is a copy and paster error from Sleep. The description really makes it seem to be Charisma based (not to mention it would be the only Int power in the Troubadour list).

2) Deal With Him! does not specify when/how the mark expires. I would assume end of your next round, but it should be specified.

I might have more later, but those are two I just ran into looking at the first few level of Troubadour.

I've focused on the Troubadour because it's my favorite class from the book. I've never liked bards before, but this version is very cool and has me interested in character concepts I've never considered before. I also really like the option to use a Battle Standard as an implement vs musical instruments only.

Thanks again Ari for a great book!

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Beholden

1) Is Soothe the Savage Beast really supposed to be Int based? I assume this is a copy and paster error from Sleep. The description really makes it seem to be Charisma based (not to mention it would be the only Int power in the Troubadour list).

I can see how you might think that, but no, in this case, not a mistake. I feel that soothe the savage beast is a hair better than sleep. It's true that it's worse on a miss, and that damage awakens the target (something not true of the sleep spell). But, the effect takes place instantly, rather than progressing through a failed save or two. I decided that part of balancing that would be basing it on one of the troubadour's other ability scores. Int is one of their primaries, but not their most important, so it seemed the way to go.

I might have been wrong about how potent it is and how it needed balancing--as I said above, I'll cop to mistakes when I make them--but it was a deliberate decision.

2) Deal With Him! does not specify when/how the mark expires. I would assume end of your next round, but it should be specified.

This, however, is indeed an error. I intend to make it work like the paladin's divine challenge; to maintain the mark, the "marking ally" must either attack the foe, or end the round adjacent to the foe.

I've focused on the Troubadour because it's my favorite class from the book. I've never liked bards before, but this version is very cool and has me interested in character concepts I've never considered before. I also really like the option to use a Battle Standard as an implement vs musical instruments only.

Thanks again Ari for a great book!

And thank you for your thoughts. I was really happy with how the troubadour came out, myself; I hope to hear how people enjoy using it.

[PeelSeel2]

I went ahead and bought despite the errata. I can download the fixed PDF later. Then I can compare your barbarian to the Unofficial WOTC barbarian.

This is the first edition of D&D since basic and AD&D that I have felt that I want to buy supplements for. Exciting.

[mach1.9pants]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.

joe b.

Sweet, that'll be good. Not much major errata for the first 3PP book, IMO. From what I've seen just a few niggles which common sense sorts and a couple of slightly larger changes. Nothing as earth crushingly rubbish as, oh I dunno, maybe getting the DCs for checks all out by around 10!

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Spatula

I don't see how quick-strike is a mistake. It's a different way of looking at the bonus striker damage, which is an all or nothing affair with the ranger, rogue, & warlock. The martial artist instead makes it as a seperate attack roll, which increases the chance of dealing some damage to the target.

I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage... like 2d6...3d6...5d6 for rogue.

maybe if it followed the unarmed strike damage...1d6 2d8 3d10 with the feat upping it to 1d8 2d10 3d12???

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage... like 2d6...3d6...5d6 for rogue.

It does indeed require a separate roll, and that's a downside.

On the other hand...

You can attack a separate foe from the main attack, which makes it a great minion killer, or lets you attack someone else if your main attack drops a foe. You can use it as a minor action even if you don't take a main attack (for whatever reason), allowing you (for instance) to double move and still make a small attack. You can use it to try to deal a little damage even if your main attack misses. The rogue/ranger/warlock extra damage cannot do any of these.

So yes, it's got the downside of requiring two rolls, but it's a lot more versatile. I think that's a pretty fair trade.

[Spatula]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage...

But requiring a seperate attack roll doesn't make it weaker. Imagine you have an attack that does 4d6 damage with a single attack roll, but if you want you can split it up into two attacks that do 2d6 each, instead. Which way does more damage?

Now, requiring a minor action each round may make it a little weaker, but I don't think that's a huge deal.

[GMforPowergamers]

ok...I can see where you guys are comeing from, but it still feels weak...I will wait untill I get to playtest it, but my feeling is still there...

[mach1.9pants]

I think the flexibility of it awesome, many times in a game the extra damage from our Ranger has been wasted. IMO once I read that I just wanted to play a monk, specifically an elven monk....but (bugger it) I DM

[Ghaerdon Fain]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

There will be no updated PDFs, only an errata sheet.

joe b.

I cried myself to sleep :-(


LOL


oh well ... still a great 3rd party effort!

[thundershot]

I was really hoping you'd update the PDF and then, with a stroke of kindness, give free PDFs to those who bought the dead tree version. Now I'm gonna have to have the book with pages of errata and.... I have enough papers all over the place.. Ah well....



Chris

[BlU_sKrEEm]

I just have to say that this product has been a big hit with my group. The craft rules are being used by two PCs, and players already called dibs on the Specialist Mage and Martial Artists MC Paragon in our main game.

Rather than our normal game this week we decided to run the Kobold Hall using the APG classes, just to test things out. So far we have a Gnomish Nature Priest, Orc-Blooded martial Artists, Shireling Savage Warrior, an Eladrin Spellbinder, and one undecided (hopefully a Troubadour.) I'll try and report on how it goes sometime Wednesday.

PS:First Post!

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by BlU_sKrEEm

Rather than our normal game this week we decided to run the Kobold Hall using the APG classes, just to test things out. So far we have a Gnomish Nature Priest, Orc-Blooded martial Artists, Shireling Savage Warrior, an Eladrin Spellbinder, and one undecided (hopefully a Troubadour.) I'll try and report on how it goes sometime Wednesday.

Please do. I'd love to hear about it.

And welcome to ENWorld.

[Jack99]

I just wanted to chime in, since I got mine already (not bad considering the distance), along with Plague and the adventure. I didn't read it all yet, since tuesday is when I run my campaign, but it looks (from a quick scan) just as awesome as I expected.

Cheers

[garyh]

I got my copy in the mail yesterday and gave it a quick skim. I love LOVE LOVE the orc-blooded. It's elegant, simple, and fills a niche left out of PHB 1. I need to find a game I can play it in. The martial artist, savage warrior, and druid all look fun as well.

Anyone reading this thread feel like running a APG-allowed game here on the Play by Post forums?

[Halivar]

I FINALLY GOT MINE!

Initial thoughts on skimming:

1) Great presentation and arrangement. Man, I wish the power titles were color-coded.

2) Am I the only one that sees immense out-of-combat potential for the Troubadour and Spellbinder 1st-level daily power Imaginary Terrain?

3) Eldritch Trickster! This is a delight to see. I was a huge fan of the splat-book version of the Arcane Trickster, and this is a worthy adaptation.

4) Spymaster daily utility Invisibility Globe is the answer to one of my wizard-player's biggest gripes: no more Mass Invisibility.

5) We never used crafting rules in 3.5E, and we probably won't use them in 4E. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that if somebody randomly requests it, I've got a good framework here.

6) It is my belief that the inclusion of ninjas, no matter how out of place they may be, improves any book.

7) Really? Is that all the Wildshaper gets? I think there's a missed opportunity here; Mouse's approach to wild-shaping is fantastic, IMO, and I wish this were a 30-level class with a wider range of shifting options. I am very happy that there is no Monster Manual look-up's here. In other words, this paragon class is so cool, I wish there was more of it.

8) Best bard ever. I can't believe it, but I want to play one. As someone who has always loved the concept of the bard, but always hated the execution, this is a huge boon.

9) I know that the Spellbinder != Illusionist (well, not exactly), but I do wish there was more illusory goodness. There are an awful lot of direct attack spells, when I think this would have been a good opportunity to try crafting a class whose attacks are always status affects of some sort. It will be harder to fluff this as an Illutionist, IMHO. I AM happy that illusions aren't the automatic "you are now out of the fight" spells they were in 3.x. Well done.

10) This is gonna sound weird, but from a min-max perspective, I see shire halfling paladins and warlocks in my future.

EDIT:

11) Martial Artists can use weapons with most of their skills? I can have Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon swordfights? Sweet.

[JustKim]

I got mine today and it looks great. I haven't had time to read everything but the monk, druid, bard, crafting rules and lingering wounds inspire me and I'd like to try them. Unfortunately, I do not have any errors to report.

Also, I really like Joan Guardiet's artwork in the book.