4e / GSL Advanced Player's Guide questions

[Sphynx]

Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book. Seriously, it's WAY better than what WotC has been producing lately. Maybe not from an Art point of view, but nicely balanced and sensible (I'll avoid my regular tirade of how stupid Swordmages are, and pretty much everything else in the FR Player's Guide).

The book is awesome. I not only approve its use in the game I run, but encourage it (while having banned the FR stuff and Dragon stuff entirely to-date).

Here are the issues I see so far (and I'll try not to repeat things already said, but 5 pages of posts, I'm sure to make that mistake at least once without having an errata next to me).

Monk. Errr.... Martial Artist.

1. Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether. I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks. So, my House rule is to double the bonus (2, 4, 6) and give a bonus to reflexes (1, 2, 3), unless you don a piece of armour or would not normally receive a Dex bonus to your Armour. Class loses the auto +1 Reflex, receiving only Will and Fort bonuses. This still isn't as effective as Leather with Enhancements, and I fear that even with this House Rule, everyone is going to want Leather (not only for the enhancement, but because alot of nice properties, such as Sylvan Leather)
2. I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier. You can split those points up per-encounter as a Free Action to give 'enhancements' to all unarmed attacks for that particular Turn (not round). You can not have an enhancement greater than your Wisdom Modifier from this, at any time. Ie: 11th level with a Wisdom of 16 has 5+3 points (8). On his first turn he can spend up to 3 (Wisdom Modifier) of his Chi Battery on an Unarmed Enhancement. This applies to all attacks (even Quick Strike) on that Turn.
3. Now that Magical Armour and Weapons have been handled without having to actually wear/wield either, I adjust Powers. The first Power I adjust is Writhing Serpent Strike. Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage). Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade :P). Writing Serpent Strike: Dex to Attack Roll instead of Wisdom. Wisdom still used for damage.
4. Same applies to Powers such Choker Grabs His Prey, Crippling Blow, Debilitating Strike, Agonizing Strike, Hammer Blow, Kraken Grasps Prey, Stunning Palm, and Quivering Fist.
5. Demon Dance - Yes, you've addressed it nicely, but taken it out of its position to do so. Minions are the reason that Demon Dance is so... overkill. Minions can not be harmed if Missed. Minions are not what this Power was intended for. I've changed the text to the following:
   
   Close Burst 2
   Attack: Wisdom vs Fortitude (Auto Damage is Bad)
   Hit: 1[W] Damage. Treat this hit as a Missed Attack.
6. Leg Sweep: Added 1[W] Damage and the following text added to the end of the 1 sentence. unless the Target makes a Saving Throw.

That's all for the Monk.

Druid.... err.... Nature Priest

1. Flaming Blade -> Flaming Spear now.

That's all. I love the Druid as is, but haven't had time to fully analyze the higher level conjurations yet.

Barbarian Berserker

1. Replaced Boundless Endurance (level 2 Utility) with a Power to Regenerate 2
2. Replaced Iron Warriors (level 16 utility) with a Power to Regenerate 5

Sorry, in my mind, Regenerate was just something all Barbarians had in my early games, and I'm not a huge fan of classes sharing the same Powers anyhows. :P Other than that, a very very nicely done class (I prefer it to the one I see on the WotC site/Dragon article).

Troubadour: Banned from my games. Too many melee attacks based on Charisma to hit. While I'm ok with the concept of someone being so distracting that people reveal their weaknesses, the chance to hit those weaknesses is still your Dexterity or Strength. Slipping past defenses (via Charisma) would be a negative to that defense (equal to the Charisma Modifier?). This would be over-kill since stacking 2 attributes together for Attacks would be the most powerful thing any class has, but it has to take the physical ability to hit into account. Best solution would probably have been damage-less effects based on Charisma (dazed would be very common usage of Charisma), allowing the other party members to benefit from that distraction. As-is, the Troubadour is, for me, thematically unsound. Fortunately, nobody I know actually likes (or ever liked) playing a Bard anyhows (cept maybe in the game Bard's Tale, the originals, not the later version :P).

Regardless, much thanks for the book. I look forward to my hard-copy arriving in the mail soon. Money well spent on a book well done.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Sphynx

Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book.

Appreciate that. And no worries.

[*]Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether. I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks.

Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists can wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus.

[*]I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier...

Hmm. A little more complex on the record-keeping than I like, but if it works for you, fantastic.

Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage). Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade :P).

Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour. Me, since the monk's powers are technically prayers and the troubadour's are technically spells--even if they happen to also involve attacks--I've got no objection to using Wisdom or Charisma.

(Uh, obviously, or I wouldn't have written 'em that way. )

But again, if you've found a solution that works for you, that's great. I'm glad you were able to get as much use out of the book as you have.

[Sphynx]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists can wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus.

I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type. Well stated.

Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour.

I don't dislike the Monk at all (minus the Wisdom based melee attacks), I think it's better written than I would have done.

[GMforPowergamers]

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

[Mathew_Freeman]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

I sense a Paragon path coming on! I'd love to see someone stat that up.

[Sphynx]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Hmm. A little more complex on the record-keeping than I like, but if it works for you, fantastic.

LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)

Just pointing out that it's not too complex an idea.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Sphynx

I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type. Well stated.

If it makes you feel any better, I almost forgot that as well when I was designing the class. Had I done so, they would have had a higher AC bonus, and would have wound up being very, very broken.

Nice to know I occasionally find my mistakes before the book is published.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.

Not Elan specifically; I just envisioned bards the way I've usually seen them played, and tried to design a class that would make that concept work.

Originally Posted by Sphynx

LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)

Just pointing out that it's not too complex an idea.

Oh, I didn't say it was too complex to exist; just more complex than I personally prefer.

[Jack99]

Okay, I finally got to read the book. Ari, you did a great job. You can and should rightfully be proud of it. Sure, there are a few hick-ups in some of the powers (most of which have been mentioned here), but nothing that a little playtesting or math can't fix.

Unless I missed a lot on that read-through, the book will definitely be put on the allowed list for my campaigns, creating a lot more options for the players, as I kill their characters.

Thanks for writing this.

[Quantarum]

Very pleased with the book and the classes have my players excited. After we finish KotS and shift back to my refurbished homebrew I have a feeling I'll have a martial artist and a troubadour in the new group.
Bravo Ari!
-Q.

[Jeremy757]

Originally Posted by tsadkiel

Any way for a Martial Artist to gain an enhancement bonus on their Chi powers? I don't see any reference to any sort of implement. Troubadors have a similar problem, since they don't have any published implements, but other magic items can be reskinned.

I was thinking about this and the Dragon article on Warforged made me think it wouldn't be to hard to come up with a enchant magic tattoo ritual that works like enchant magic item for Chi martial artists. It would allow you to basically embed a magical weapon effect in your body that you can use with your unarmed attacks.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Jeremy757

I was thinking about this and the Dragon article on Warforged made me think it wouldn't be to hard to come up with a enchant magic tattoo ritual that works like enchant magic item for Chi martial artists. It would allow you to basically embed a magical weapon effect in your body that you can use with your unarmed attacks.

That is a great idea...I have been trying to find an excuse to make magic tatoos

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Jack99

Unless I missed a lot on that read-through, the book will definitely be put on the allowed list for my campaigns, creating a lot more options for the players, as I kill their characters.

Originally Posted by Quantarum

Very pleased with the book and the classes have my players excited. After we finish KotS and shift back to my refurbished homebrew I have a feeling I'll have a martial artist and a troubadour in the new group.

Thanks, guys.

Once you've had the chance to actually see these classes in play for a few games straight, I'd love to hear about your experiences.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.

If there's one thing that an update sheet won't really be able to help with is the color coding of the powers. Is it possible to have the PDF be properly color coded to make skimming powers easier?

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

I understand everyone has different purchasing inputs and that not everyone will be satisfied with our solution which I believe to be fairly industry standard.

While I respect your decision, Joe... Really, is that all you want to strive for? Just meeting a perceived "fairly industry standard"? I would think that a small press outfit would want to try to do more, to set themselves ahead of the pack.

I've gotten quite a few notifications from RPGNow about PDFs that have been errata'd, so it can't be that uncommon. I got it from Malhavoc, as well as a number of other publishers.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Thanks, guys.

Once you've had the chance to actually see these classes in play for a few games straight, I'd love to hear about your experiences.

I have the next week off, so while I doubt I will see any of the classes in action (none of my players are planning to die - on the other hand, I guess that could be arranged... ) I do plan on getting a firm grip on the classes and ask a few questions/give some feedback.

Cheers

[jgbrowning]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

If there's one thing that an update sheet won't really be able to help with is the color coding of the powers. Is it possible to have the PDF be properly color coded to make skimming powers easier?

Advanced Player's Guide is a B&W book, both in print and PDF.

joe b.

[jgbrowning]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

While I respect your decision, Joe... Really, is that all you want to strive for? Just meeting a perceived "fairly industry standard"?

When it comes to PDF errata, yes.

The errata sheet will be added to the back of the PDF so new customers will have the errata at purchase and pre-existing customers can redownload the product. Also, it will be available separately as a free download for customers who have not purchased the PDF version of the Advanced Player's Guide.

joe b.

[DM Magic]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

Advanced Player's Guide is a B&W book, both in print and PDF.

joe b.

Any idea on when the errata will be available?

[jgbrowning]

Originally Posted by DM Magic

Any idea on when the errata will be available?

This weekend still looks good. I will be surprised if it's not available by Monday.

joe b.

[Daelkyr]

I must say that I am liking what I see with the APG Ari. I bought it the first day. I usually shy away from third party publications, but everything I saw about this book made me want to purchase it. While I am also saddened about the fact that there will be no update to the pdf when the errata is made available (I know that Piazo and Green Ronin do this), I plan on using Adobe Acrobat to make those changes to the pdf myself.

I especially like your Troubadour and Nature Priest. When I get my player's to give it a try, I'll let you know how they play. Great buy and worth the money.