4e / GSL Advanced Player's Guide questions

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

When it comes to PDF errata, yes.

The errata sheet will be added to the back of the PDF so new customers will have the errata at purchase and pre-existing customers can redownload the product. Also, it will be available separately as a free download for customers who have not purchased the PDF version of the Advanced Player's Guide.

Fair enough. There are acutally two points that bum me out here, though.

1. I guess I was hoping that more companies would realize that they SHOULD go color with PDF, as well as make a print friendly B&W version that is the one that ultimately is used for print.

In this PDF, is there some other way that the daily, encounter, at-will powers are differentiated? Like an icon or a big D, E, or W on the power block?

2. PDFs don't require a reprint. So, by nature, the medium is designed to be easily updated. I am not sure what publishing software is used primarily in the RPG industry, but I am an amateur, and I have updated 10-12 different Quark and InDesign publications (for a 64+ page print publication that was going to put their issues online) over two days with mega ads all over the place. And this was over 6-7 years ago when the software wasn't as forgiving. Yes, page breaks, some breakout boxes and such need to be positioned and recalculated, but in reality it's pretty easy. The main reason it wasn't done prior to that was the printing and distribution costs of getting the updated issues out.

Is it about time and money? Return on investment of the time spent updating?


I would consider myself one of your loyal customers. Looking at my personal PDF library, I have purchased 14 different XRP PDFs, and three of the ones below in print as well:

• Monster Geographica: Forest
• Monster Geographica: Plain and Desert
• Monster Geographica: Marsh and Aquatic
• Monster Geographica: Hill and Mountain
• Monster Geographica: Underground
• Silk Road
• Beast Builder
• City Guide
• Ecology and Culture
• Western Europe 2nd ed.
• Liber Artefactorum
• Nevermore for True20 and two different Nevermore supplements.

The Advanced Adventures and the 1-on-1s just didn't fit my gaming, and I missed out on the NPC files after you switched to YourGamesNow.

I guess that for late 2008 this kind of attitude about PDFs is disappointing...

[BlU_sKrEEm]

Here is my review of my One Shot Through the Kobold Caves using APG classes:

The Party:
Mr Fu - Orc-Blooded Martial Artists (hard style)

Powers:
Leaping Strike
granite Palm
Charging Gorgon Kick
Catch the Striking Scorpion

Humbug: Earth Gnome Conjuration Nature Priest
Powers:
Lightening Fists
Swarming Summons
Diving Raptor (flavored as a Giant Cockroach)
Blinding Bats (Flavored as a Gnat Swarm)

Napoleon - Shire Halfling Savage Warrior
Powers:
Distracting Blow (I assume this only applies to your attack right?)
Warding Strike
Kick them When their Down
Hounding strike

Bowie - Eladrin Spell Binder Powers:
Eye Bite
Phantom Strike
Grasping Shadows (From Dragon 364)
Imaginary Terrain

Piper - Minotaur Skillful Troubadour
Powers:
Nicks and Scratches
Phantom Strike
Get them off of Me!
Sooth the Savage Beast

The Adventure:
The Minotaur player was worried that the Troubadour would not provide enough healing for a five member party, so the only way I could get him to play one was to provide a healing potion for each player at the start of the adventure. This probably made the adventure a little easier then I had thought.

This party had already conquered the cavern before with their normal characters, and with the added boost of the healing potions the party felt invincible, which was probably not a good thing. The first few encounters was full of foolishness; Mr Fu (Martial Artist) would start each encounter by running into battle Quick Striking and then running back to hide behind the Bowie (spellbinder), Napoleon (Savage warrior) would spend each round charging from one enemy to the next, ect ect. However as time went on the party got over the newness of their PCs, and started playing smart.

I have to share the end to one of the most epic combats I have ever seen in 4th to date: On the Big Boss battle the dice suddenly turn against the players. The Wyrm Priest and Drake go down relatively quickly, but for some reason the Dragon Shield refuse to quit. Eventually they bring one down, but the last one proves unnervingly lucky: so far it has three critical hits to it's total, but his support is down two rounds ago.


The Dragon Shield Attacks Humbug, manging to get its fourth critical in one combat. Humbug does not look good and I curse not using a DM screen.

Mr Fu charges into combat and knocks the Dradionshield on his back with a Charging Gorgon Kick before shifting out of the boulder's path with an action point (donated by Piper two rounds earlier.) This is followed up by a savage stomping by Napoleon (Kick em When They're Down! Crit!)

Napoleon makes his limping escape with a cloud of biting gnats (blinding bats; no opportunity attack for you Sr Kobold!) The Boulder rounds the corner before either the Dragon Shield or Napoleon can react, and both are hit. When the dust settles Napoleon is critically injured, but standing (3 hp left), the Dragon shield is not as lucky.


Here is my final analysis; The Team worked well together, although it did have some problems with minions.

The Martial Artists was perhaps the most chaotic character I have ever seen. It was impossible to pin him down. The combo of charging, pushing atacks, and shifting was pretty impressive. The player has asked if he can switch his main character for an Elven Martial artists after this session.

The Nature Priest was and still is my favorite class over all. the Flavor is just to damned cool, and the implementation is fantastic. I was very happy to see the player keep with a theme as well.

The Savage warrior is an even better Defender than I thought. It's very tempting to attack a charging player, and it becomes hard to ignore him once he's marked you, especially once he starts getting free attacks when you do (Most likely buffed with effect such as Distracting Blows and Warding strike.) I thought the lower damage might hinder this, but extra attacks really make up for it. I imagine a more optimized character would have been amazing

The Troubadour provides plenty of healing, we were worried for nothing. The team work effects made this probably one of the funnest characters to watch in the game. If there is one class that typifies the intended feel of fourth, I'd say the Troubadour is it. I am at a lost as to why a non-minotaur character would pick Inspiring Strike over Phantom Strike at first level, however.

I'm still not a fan of the Spellbinder, as it doesn't feel very controllerish to me.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Daelkyr

While I am also saddened about the fact that there will be no update to the pdf when the errata is made available (I know that Piazo and Green Ronin do this), I plan on using Adobe Acrobat to make those changes to the pdf myself.

I hope it works for you. Many of these PDFs are locked down and don't allow updating. Unless you do something to rebuild the PDF.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by BlU_sKrEEm

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Here is my review of my One Shot Through the Kobold Caves using APG classes:

<snip stuff>

That sounded fun. I may end up getting this book via PDF anyway, since Ari's name is on it and it's getting some good press. I will likely wait for the errata sheet though.

[Daelkyr]

When I buy a pdf, my first measure it to help it come to an understanding that I have purchased it and I will do any and all formatting I see fit with it on my own PC. Sure, there's a little brute force involved, but once we both understand each other, everything goes so much smoother. I haven't yet found a pdf that couldn't say no after a little persuasion.

[Shazman]

For those of you who have the book or Ari. What does the Martial Artist multiclassing feat give you, and what does the Unseen Ninja PP do? I'm really leaning towards getting this book, and this info is crucial to my decision.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Shazman

For those of you who have the book or Ari. What does the Martial Artist multiclassing feat give you, and what does the Unseen Ninja PP do? I'm really leaning towards getting this book, and this info is crucial to my decision.

FOLLOWER OF THE WAY (MULTICLASS MARTIAL ARTIST)

Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13

Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the
martial artist’s class skill list.

Once per encounter, you can use the Wind-Swift
Charge ability. This allows you to use an at-will power—
of either your normal class, or the martial artist class
if you’ve gained any such abilities via future multiclass
feats—at the culmination of the charge, rather than
relying on a basic attack.

As far as the unseen ninja, well, I'm willing to copy-and-paste a whole feat, but not a whole paragon path. However, in summary...

It gives you stealth-related path features (including the ability to turn briefly invisible when spending an action point to gain an extra action), gives you some ability to use daggers with chi-based powers, gives you a few ninja-appropriate attack powers, and a utility power that you'll find very useful for some of the ninja's supernatural "how the hell did he get in there?!" shtick.

[Shazman]

That sounds interesting, but I was really hoping it would give the quick strike ability once an encounter and maybe proficiency with unarmed strike. The Unseen Ninja PP does sound pretty cool.

[Jack99]

Okay, so I read some more now. I focused mostly on the heroic tier powers, since I feel they are the most important (to me). I skipped all the stuff that I saw had already been discussed.

The Martial Artist
First of all, I really like what you did with the class. While the divine part is arguable (and not really how I would do it), it is so easy to change that it is not even worth wasting these lines on it . The only issue I have, is the Quick-strike. I see how it gives some added versatility to have it be an additional roll. However, I prefer a keep it simple approach, and was wondering if you think it would unbalance the class to just add the damage, much like the ranger does. My gut says no, but I would like to get some feedback on it

• Serpent Bends Aside: Is it supposed to deflect magical attacks as well?
  
• False dead: Is it supposed to be usable in combat? If so, shouldn't it be an immediate reaction?

Nature Priest
Love this class as well. Awesome job.

• Lightning Fist: Shouldn't it’s secondary attack be against reflex?
  
• Gust of wind: Push 6 really sounds like a lot. I get that it's a classic druid thing, but 6 squares?
  
• Sphere of fire: Why does it give -2 to attack rolls? Ongoing damage seems to be the fire shtick these days. What causes the penalty?
  
• Heavy fog: Is there some height rule to it, that I have missed?
  
• Slashing tree: Why suddenly use cha to attack, all other attacks use wis from what I noticed?
  
• Bramble wall: That is a sweet power, but maybe the 1 hour duration is a bit too much. Do we have examples of other powers with similar durations? Maybe 5 minutes would be enough?
  
• Entangling terrain: Why only up to 1 minute duration? Sustainable stuff can be sustained for the encounter, normally.

Savage Warrior
Relentless Attack
Once per round, as an opportunity action, you may make a basic melee attack against an adjacent foe who attacks one of your allies with a melee or ranged attack.
If an enemy makes a ranged attack against anyone, while being adjacent to you, you already get an OA. Do you get another, or is something else?

• Staggering blow: shouldn't this be a push effect?
  
• Interposing strike: (see above)

In general, I must admit that I am not too happy about the barbarian. I see it as either the defender who hits hard (being able to take a lot of punishment to make up for the lower ac) or as the striker who hits really hard, while being able to take some hits (lots of big hulk smash hits). This barbarian feels a little bit too controller-ish or something. I see what you did, with the powers that crit on a 15+ (might want to mention that it assumes a hit) but it feels a bit too random. Which is a pity, because you really seem to have captured the feel, with many of the other powers.

Troubadour
Love this one as well!

• Soothe the savage beast: No reason why it cant be cha vs will – the bard should be a better “sleeper” than the wizard. Having to use a secondary ability for one or two powers is a tad odd, design wise, at least imo.

Spellbinder
Not really sure about this one. I like the class, but something about it feels underpowered. However, I can't quite decide why, so for now, I will have to wait and see.

All in all, a great book, thanks for writing it, Ari.

[todd-ehrling]

Hi,
I just got the book, and I'm very pleased with it. There's a lot of great ideas.
I have one question though :
I read the problem with Demon Dance and I admit I have problems with its little brother : Writhing Serpent Strike. Is-it really an at-will power ? This minion auto-killer felles more like an encounter to me...

Thanks

[goodmangames]

[removed per request]

[Nikosandros]

Edit: This post is now irrelevant. Please remove.

[jgbrowning]

[removed out of courtesy]

[Gothmog]

Hey Joe and Ari,

I've got two players in my game who are going to be using the APG classes (nature priest and troubador), and they brought something up the other night. We've been using power cards for the base classes in the our games so far, and we've come to really like using them in play. Is there any chance you guys would be willing to put out a PDF of the powers in the APG, with space on them to write in attack bonus and damage? I think there might be a market for them, and I know I'd be willing to pay $7-12 for a PDF file of the power cards. I'd love to see this done as an industry standard when new powers are available in products.

[jgbrowning]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Hey Joe and Ari,

I've got two players in my game who are going to be using the APG classes (nature priest and troubador), and they brought something up the other night. We've been using power cards for the base classes in the our games so far, and we've come to really like using them in play. Is there any chance you guys would be willing to put out a PDF of the powers in the APG, with space on them to write in attack bonus and damage? I think there might be a market for them, and I know I'd be willing to pay $7-12 for a PDF file of the power cards. I'd love to see this done as an industry standard when new powers are available in products.

You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.

What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?

joe b.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.

What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?

joe b.

This is excellent news. Joe, you get this done and you've got my sale.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

This is excellent news. Joe, you get this done and you've got my sale.

Yeah, I will buy that too!

Another company included this up front in their release of a multiclass-class, and I must admit, doing so should be the new community standard for 3rd party publishers.

In color of course!

[Zaukrie]

The should be the same size as DDM cards so they fit into the generic card sleeves.

Has this book made it to distributors yet? I'd really like to get my hands on it, but my FLGS has said that it isn't with their distributor yet.

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by jgbrowning

You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.

What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?

joe b.

I'm glad you liked the idea and this could be a reality! I'd prefer to see cards about the size of standard playing or DDM cards, that could fit down into card sleeves. That makes the cards more durable, and you can put a standard card behind them for extra support. Plus, you could fit more of them onto a page for easier printing with that size!

And as for landscape or standard format for the card- doesn't really matter to me. The ones we've been using are landscape format, and they have plenty of white space left over on the card for writing notes.

[Moridin]

Just got my copy in the mail yesterday. I haven't had time to read it too in-depth, but it looks interesting. Nice work, guys!