1E/2E/OD&D My Group had an Epiphany!

[Darrell]

Hi, all--

Just throwin' this out into the void:

I bought a WELL-used copy of the 1980 D&D Basic Rulebook at the FLGS for 2 bucks recently, just out of nostalgia.

Last Saturday night, one of my players called to say he couldn't make it, so we decided, on a whim, to play an 'old-school' session. Ten minutes later, I had created a dungeon-crawl, my players had created characters, and we were playing. No miniatures, no tiles, no four-plus page character sheets, no skills and feats, etc.; just one sheet of paper each (well, three for me) and some dice. A while later, the player who'd called came in (having been able to make it after all), and five minutes later, he had a character and was neck-deep in kobolds, along with the rest of them.

After two hours or so, when we stopped for a snack break, the youngest of my players (age 21, a recent gaming convert; she's never played anything but D&D 3.X and Microlite20) said, "You know, I really like this," and for some reason, everybody was quiet for a moment. It was an actual 'OMG' moment; we looked around, and everybody seemed to know what everyone else was thinking.

We never got back to the game. We started reminiscing about old campaigns, talking about what we liked and didn't like about various editions, and what each of us were looking for in a game. In the end, we decided to lay off the newer stuff for a bit.

I went to eBay, and bought a copy of the Expert Rulebook and the 'Keep on the Borderlands' module. They arrived in today's mail, and that's gonna be our game for the next little while. So now, after 30-ish years, I'm basically back where I started.

Just thought I'd throw it out there for perusal and/or comment.

Regards,
Darrell

[ExploderWizard]

Complex and involved rules systems can have this effect on a group after a while. The whole nostalgia argument just doesn't hold water if you are indeed enjoying your game in the present. I've been wondering for quite some time now why some think 300 plus pages of rules are needed to kick open doors and beat up some monsters. Have fun with your game.

If you can get one, find a Rules Cyclopedia. Tons of great stuff there and it never really gets complicated.

[Korgoth]

Welcome (back) to the Old School!

Old School gaming is not about nostalgia. It's about the fact that the game is fun, it works and it still holds up.

I like the flexibility of the rules, the quickness of play and the simple, open-ended approach that it affords. I hope you have as much fun with it as I do!

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there are a lot of resources out there right now because Old School play is experiencing a bit of a renaissance. Here are a few links in case you don't know about them:

Original D&D Discussion - Home - for Original D&D (1974)

Dragonsfoot • Index page - for all D&D up through 2nd ed.; my link is to the forum but you will want to visit the main site as well, especially the downloads where you'll find lots of free adventures

Fight On! magazine - Home Page - a print magazine for 1974 OD&D... new and excellent!

Though 2 of the 3 links are for the original edition (that came in the little box), the beauty of the early stuff is that you can easily mix and match resources among the editions... they're all so closely related.

[Mercule]

I decided a while back that, if 4e ends up not "doing it" for me or my group, I'm going to try to find a red box or run 1e. I really think there's something to be said for simplicity. The old 1e characters never seemed to lack for flavor and personality -- often having more than most 3e characters I've seen.

[Henry]

I still believe there has been nothing quite like the old Moldvay and Mentzer Basic D&D books for being able to just break them out and get a game started among people who have never gamed before. There's something simple, direct, and so far unreproducible about those little 64-page books, and I don't believe it's the nostalgia talking.

I do believe that if you scrutinize it hard enough, the mechanics between classes aren't balanced well enough for everyone to shine long-term, but it's irrelevant to its ability to present the seven or so classes, give the broad strokes of what they are, and just START PLAYING. The GM and players can spice it up themselves to taste, but just the strong core framework can get things going perfectly.

The D&D Cyclopedia is the one book I'd answer the "gaming on a desert island" question with -- it's got everything I'd need.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Complex and involved rules systems can have this effect on a group after a while. The whole nostalgia argument just doesn't hold water if you are indeed enjoying your game in the present. I've been wondering for quite some time now why some think 300 plus pages of rules are needed to kick open doors and beat up some monsters. Have fun with your game.

If you can get one, find a Rules Cyclopedia. Tons of great stuff there and it never really gets complicated.

This just Kills me! (as in laughing to death) If you're having fun, whatever the system, then you're having fun. You're absolutely right that enjoyment is the key. I just find it ironic that saying a simpler ruleset can enhance enjoyment, and then in the next sentence say that adding some more rules might help. Aahhh, sweet Irony.

[EricNoah]

Originally Posted by Korgoth

Old School gaming is not about nostalgia.

Sometimes it is -- and there is nothing wrong with that. There are parts of my brain that can only be tickled by reading the AD&D DMG and old modules like B1. I think folks who are contemplating a trip to Old School might want to really examine what it is they hope to get out of the experience, and communicate that with their group and/or DM. I, myself, might find it more fun to play "old adventures with old rules" than "new adventures with old rules" for example.

[Philotomy Jurament]

Sounds cool.

If you're having fun and getting back into classic D&D, you might also check out the advice and comments at Robert Fisher's Classic D&D page. There's also my web site talking about OD&D, which might by of interest (although I focus on the earlier "white box" rules, there's a lot that's compatible and applicable).

My advice is to approach the older editions as their own thing; like a different, but obviously related, game. There's no reason you can't have fun with both newer systems and older D&D, playing whichever suits your group's fancy.

[Irda Ranger]

Originally Posted by Henry

I do believe that if you scrutinize it hard enough, the mechanics between classes aren't balanced well enough for everyone to shine long-term

Does anyone have any suggestions for someone who (like me) is really bothered by this? Does anyone know if someone has done a rewrite of the classes to balance them across 20/36 levels?

I keep picking up "new" Old School stuff like C&C and Labyrinth Lord in the hope that someone does this, but the old problems keep getting ported over along with the good stuff.

Thanks

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

This just Kills me! (as in laughing to death) If you're having fun, whatever the system, then you're having fun. You're absolutely right that enjoyment is the key.

Ok, we agree.

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

I just find it ironic that saying a simpler ruleset can enhance enjoyment, and then in the next sentence say that adding some more rules might help. Aahhh, sweet Irony.

Depending on the group and thier needs and goals, a simpler ruleset can enhance enjoyment. There is never a guarantee that any ruleset will enhance enjoyment of the game. Can is not equal to does.

I mentioned the Rules Cyclopedia simply because it is the holy grail of gaming books.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Irda Ranger

Does anyone have any suggestions for someone who (like me) is really bothered by this? Does anyone know if someone has done a rewrite of the classes to balance them across 20/36 levels?

To be honest, it might be as simple as letting Thieves get backstab more often, and giving them some kind of "distraction" or "trick" that they can perform on the things that it wouldn't make sense to backstab, such as undead and golems, maybe to the tune of some kind of penalty or turn loss for the enemy if they fail a saving throw. For magic-users, it might be letting them get a single spell back with 1 or 2 hours of preparation.

So far, when people try to fix these, we end up with something like the 3e or 4e rogue or wizard, which defeats the purpose of "simple and direct" and "fits in a single paragraph," which is part of the appeal of these books.

[RFisher]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Darrell.

Classic D&D really is just as much fun today as it was then. I find it a real shame that it isn’t still on the department store shelves next to Monopoly, Risk, et al.

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

I just find it ironic that saying a simpler ruleset can enhance enjoyment, and then in the next sentence say that adding some more rules might help

(^_^)

I’m glad I have my RC on my shelf, but I don’t bring it to the table.

[Hussar]

Yeah, I gotta admit, having recently regained ownership of my Basic/Expert books, I'd run them again in a heartbeat. I think it would be an absolute blast to run these as an adult, rather than the rather erm... what's the right word?... less than mature ten year old I was way back when.

Maybe a one shot is what the doctor ordered.

[Holy Bovine]

I fully endorse this idea of going back to basics ( ) on a regular basis. I am long, long overdue for a return to RC D&D but am filling that need by running one of my 4E games in Mystara (aka the Known World).

I can think of at least one player who would be terribly unhappy with RC D&D - but it would be good for him to not min/max every freaking character. 3d6 in order.l

[Darrin Drader]

Ols school is fun, fast, and full of flavor. I switched to 3E because I like the extra options that are available from every position in the game (be that playing a character or behind the DM screen), but there's a great deal of fun in that old stuff that you just don't see in D&D anymore.

[FATDRAGONGAMES]

Originally Posted by Henry

I still believe there has been nothing quite like the old Moldvay and Mentzer Basic D&D books for being able to just break them out and get a game started among people who have never gamed before. There's something simple, direct, and so far unreproducible about those little 64-page books, and I don't believe it's the nostalgia talking.

Thank you. You not only hit the nail on the head, you freakin' decapitated it.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Depending on the group and thier needs and goals, a simpler ruleset can enhance enjoyment. There is never a guarantee that any ruleset will enhance enjoyment of the game. Can is not equal to does.

I mentioned the Rules Cyclopedia simply because it is the holy grail of gaming books.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with what you said at all, I was just pointing out the irony in how you said it.

I know that I usually prefer a very heavy, complicated, simulationist set of rules. However, there are times I just want to have fun, and not have to think so hard in order to do it. Perfect example, I love the Pirates game from WizKids. There's definitely no way that could be described as a rules heavy, simulationist game. But, it certainly is fun (someone else here on ENWorld described it as "plastic crack" - that's not too far from the truth). Besides, if it was simulationist, obviously the USS Constitution would be invulnerable, not just merely tough.

I can appreciate the OP's feelings about their earlier edition game. Every once in a while something will happen in a game that feels just like that first time I played D&D, irregardless of the system being used at the time. I don't necessarily think it's about nostalgia either, I think it's just pure fun. After all is said and done, I think that's why most of us play this game.

[Keefe the Thief]

Like most people in Germany i started gaming with The Dark Eye. I´ve never met anyone on a messageboard or in real life who has ever considered of going back to oTDE. I know people that still play 3rd edition, but you cannot compare that to going back like the OP, that game was already full of crunch.

Lots of people are replaying the old adventures, but the original system is, well, dead. Interesting thing, this difference.

[Korgoth]

Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief

Like most people in Germany i started gaming with The Dark Eye. I´ve never met anyone on a messageboard or in real life who has ever considered of going back to oTDE. I know people that still play 3rd edition, but you cannot compare that to going back like the OP, that game was already full of crunch.

Lots of people are replaying the old adventures, but the original system is, well, dead. Interesting thing, this difference.

I find a certain alchemy of genius in the original D&D editions (especially OD&D and Classic). They are like an exquisitely balanced meal - some of this, and some of that, with a complementarity where one thing brings out the flavor of another... but each stands on its own so that you can remove or modify something to suit your own taste without destroying the whole.

I find the latter editions to suffer from the "salt problem". It's as if a chef said to himself "Salt tastes good. If I put in 10 times as much salt, this food will taste 10 times as good." Now that's not meant to offend anybody... I'm just saying that they're not to my taste, and that is because they draw selectively upon the older elements and ramp them up until they take the forefront. I just don't find the resulting concoction to my liking.

There is of course ample room for exploring both old school and new school gaming. My own taste is so decidedly to the former that I don't do much of the latter anymore.

I've never had any experience with The Dark Eye. But the original D&D stuff has a genius that makes it worth going back to, or discovering for the first time if you've never tried it.

[Baron Opal]

Originally Posted by Irda Ranger

Does anyone have any suggestions for someone who (like me) is really bothered by this? Does anyone know if someone has done a rewrite of the classes to balance them across 20/36 levels?

I'm kind of working on something like this where I'm taking OD&D, adapting the classes of the RC, running across 12 levels, adapting saves from Iron Heroes and finally adding in a couple of things I like. My manuscript, sans spells, is pretty close to done at 10 hand-written pages. Simple, direct and versatile have been my watchwords as ultimatly this project is for a game for my 7 y.o. son and his friends.

Originally Posted by Korgoth

I find a certain alchemy of genius in the original D&D editions (especially OD&D and Classic). They are like an exquisitely balanced meal - some of this, and some of that, with a complementarity where one thing brings out the flavor of another... but each stands on its own so that you can remove or modify something to suit your own taste without destroying the whole.

It's pretty neat when you think that the ruleset spawned such divergent settings as Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Tekumel and Arduin. IIRC, while some of those may have existed as fiction before OD&D, they were the first published settings.