General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
A few notes from my perspective:
- My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.
Really? I'm surprised to hear you say this, since I think most of us were moving (in addition to attacking) almost every round. Understand that 40% of us are rogues, and for a rogue, every movement consideration pales in comparison to flanking for sneak attacks. Logan and Cobalt were constantly moving to maintain flanking on our enemies.
Also, as a group, we have very few (in fact, I think zero) powers that move our enemies around. I guess we could bull-rush, but that never seems as good as just using a power. As such, a bonfire (for instance) is much more a danger to us than our enemies, and so there's not much we can do to take advantage of it. (In fact, we'd want to stay away from it, so as not risk getting pushed/pulled/slid into it.)
Still, you could be right. Can you think of an example where we failed to use a tactical element in a clearly (or even not so clearly) beneficial way?
Well, when you were standing beside the guillotine of gobbler slicing. And there was the hellfire cannon in the gobbler trophy room, but you weren't really looking around. Oh, and the collapsing ceiling of quite significant pain that you could have triggered over the King's head if you'd pulled on the hanging lamp...
Hee.
Seriously, I can think of one or two possibilities (kicking over the stewpot onto the gobbler beside the baby, for instance), but it hadn't quite occurred to me that no one has any powers that slide enemies around. That will gradually change as you level, depending on what people want to pick.
Watching the flanking movement was really pretty. If Kodiak ends up joining and we get a third rogue in the group, I fear for my enemies.
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Well, when you were standing beside the guillotine of gobbler slicing. And there was the hellfire cannon in the gobbler trophy room, but you weren't really looking around. Oh, and the collapsing ceiling of quite significant pain that you could have triggered over the King's head if you'd pulled on the hanging lamp...
You know, just because my character has a -1 "bonus" to Perception Checks, you don't have to rub it in!
I think Caldwell was the only one who hadn’t used their Daily. (Hey, Blackjack... is that true? And if so, what were you waiting for?
At one of our 4e test games, the party was facing down the final boss in Keep on the Shadowfell and getting pasted pretty badly (evil tentacles, unholy portal, etc.). One of the players was debating using his Daily but was hesitant, fearing he might waste it. The party warlock stood up and yelled "What are you waiting for, a rainy day? Well, look outside...IT'S POURING, BITCH!" This ended the debate.
Outstanding write-up, by the way. I only hope my 4e game can be this interesting out of the gate. I am curious about PC's comment about movement. Sagiro, did you perceive the party as being overly cautious with regards to movement. For that matter, did you guys use a battlemap for this encounter or just fudge it?
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I am curious about PC's comment about movement. Sagiro, did you perceive the party as being overly cautious with regards to movement. For that matter, did you guys use a battlemap for this encounter or just fudge it?
See my above post re: movement. I thought we were moving around quite a bit. Heck, I burned my Action Point in the boss battle just to get the extra movement I needed to launch a first round sneak-attack. The only caution we showed, was when Logan, wounded and out of Healing Surges, didn't charge into battle against the longsword-wielding Gobbler King. Can't really blame him for that!
We always use a battlemat and minis (and colored glass globs for most baddies) for non-trivial combats; I can't speak for the other players, but I a) find it invaluable because I have trouble envisioning complex spaces without it, and b) love it because I'm a board-gamer at heart, and like to see all the tactical possibilities spread out for examination.
It may just be my perception, which isn't necessarily holding up well as I consider the game. I cordially retract it. This is what I get for even considering a duel to the death on a balcony overlooking an arena full of gobblers!
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It may just be my perception, which isn't necessarily holding up well as I consider the game. I cordially retract it. This is what I get for even considering a duel to the death on a balcony overlooking an arena full of gobblers!
That balcony was, to me, the scariest thing about that fight -- I'm glad the combat didn't take place close to it, and things were most in jeopardy when the King tried to flee toward it. Consider the possibilities of *anything* happening near that balcony:
1. A PC gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. Assured PC death.
2. A Gobbler gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. 100 gobblers become alerted to the combat, and rush around to fight us. Likely TPK.
3. Fighting occurs close enough to the balcony that the 100 gobblers below see that intruders are fighting their King! See results from #2.
I though the balcony and proximate arena were fantastic dramatic elements, but tactically I wanted nooooooo part of them!
- My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.
Something I'm finding, as well, is that Mobile Monsters encourage Mobile Characters.
In the dinosaur fight just gone, the raptors were skirmishers who gained a bonus to AC and damage in any round they moved more than four squares (plus they got one free unthreatened square following a bite attack)... so it was to their advantage to move all over the battlemat. And so every couple of rounds, the PCs had to move in order to engage a target... and we got lots of vine-swinging and tree-climbing, and Coraline Thunderwaving dinosaurs into the river to be eaten by piranha.
I think if the dinosaurs had been standing in one place and chomping at people, the PCs would have been more inclined to stand-and-slog as well.
(Not entirely, since you guys rock, but I think it made a difference to the nature of the combat.)
That balcony was, to me, the scariest thing about that fight -- I'm glad the combat didn't take place close to it, and things were most in jeopardy when the King tried to flee toward it. Consider the possibilities of *anything* happening near that balcony:
1. A PC gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. Assured PC death.
2. A Gobbler gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. 100 gobblers become alerted to the combat, and rush around to fight us. Likely TPK.
3. Fighting occurs close enough to the balcony that the 100 gobblers below see that intruders are fighting their King! See results from #2.
I though the balcony and proximate arena were fantastic dramatic elements, but tactically I wanted nooooooo part of them!
That was my very first thought when I read the post describing the battle. I was thinking, "Man, if they get on that balcony and the gobblers down below look up and see them...that's gonna suck!"
My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.
As you know, encounter environment is my specialty! My question for you Kev is how did you clue in the players that there was stuff they could interact with in the environment, or did you just decribe it and let them decide, or was it a matter of them never being in a position to notice the possibilities?
One of the things I like to do is have opportunities for a fight to be broken up over an area with various levels, so have people jumping down and climbing up and able to get tactical superiority over those below them, etc. . . Of course, having a goal for the encounter (like save a baby) really helps to get people moving, just by having the target move - or having to move to prevent foes from reaching some crucial spot or object.
Worse, it sounded like the gobbler was striking the baby in an attempt to quiet it down. Infuriated, we kicked in the door.
Ahem. You forgot the most important part. Logan and Cobalt tried to break down the door. Then Toiva and Dr. Caldwell stepped forward and showed them how it's done...
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Something I'm finding, as well, is that Mobile Monsters encourage Mobile Characters.
Something that I'm finding is that games when the Fighter isn't there, the monsters end up being very mobile. In games when the Fighter is there, he is so sticky that lots of monsters end up pretty much unable to move (or get whacked).
When the party was fighting lots of hobgoblins (who get bonuses for sticking together in ranks), they tend to clump together lots and don't move much. The kobolds were much more mobile, in comparison.
The goblin battles were somewhat in between the two (although restricted dungeon terrain tended to make any movement more difficult).
I think I'm going to want to make more public the kind of things that can be done with terrain/encounter areas and skills - it is entirely possible that my group isn't particularly aware of the kind of options that are there (of course once I've done that, they can expect to see the Duergar and others start trying stunting at various times!)
Cheers
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Something that I'm finding is that games when the Fighter isn't there, the monsters end up being very mobile. In games when the Fighter is there, he is so sticky that lots of monsters end up pretty much unable to move (or get whacked).
My monsters get whacked more often than not. I'm not going to have them sit and try to hack the dumb fighter just cause he gets a free swipe, and they get a -2 against anyone else. But then, not only does that encourage more movement, but it also helps my combats speed up a tad.
My monsters get whacked more often than not. I'm not going to have them sit and try to hack the dumb fighter just cause he gets a free swipe, and they get a -2 against anyone else. But then, not only does that encourage more movement, but it also helps my combats speed up a tad.
Yeah - my theory is that often, powers of the form "If opponent does X, you get to do Y!" are more fun for the players if X (and therefore Y) actually happens, rather than just making the power into a "Opponent can't do X".
Now, that doesn't mean that every opponent is always going to shift when adjacent to the fighter. But if there's something more useful they could be doing over there, then I'm happy for the fighter to actually get to make his free attack.
Yeah - my theory is that often, powers of the form "If opponent does X, you get to do Y!" are more fun for the players if X (and therefore Y) actually happens, rather than just making the power into a "Opponent can't do X".
Now, that doesn't mean that every opponent is always going to shift when adjacent to the fighter. But if there's something more useful they could be doing over there, then I'm happy for the fighter to actually get to make his free attack.
-Hyp.
I did actually do this in the final fight of Keep on the Shadowfell - the BBEG would have wiped out the party if he had been played optimally, but I considered him to be overconfident and careless about provoking the maul-armed fighter (at least until he got down to bloodied...)
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
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If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Now, that doesn't mean that every opponent is always going to shift when adjacent to the fighter. But if there's something more useful they could be doing over there, then I'm happy for the fighter to actually get to make his free attack.
Well, yeah, I don't do it mindlessly either. Depends a lot on the foe. But I played a bit with a DM that was upset that he couldn't do anything with the monsters because of the fighter. But then he always yelled, "YES!" when he scored a crit, too.
Seriously, I can think of one or two possibilities (kicking over the stewpot onto the gobbler beside the baby, for instance), but it hadn't quite occurred to me that no one has any powers that slide enemies around. That will gradually change as you level, depending on what people want to pick.
You are absolutely right that this could well change during the first few level ups. We found that we were having plenty of fun at first level simply using the great new powers we had. Nobody was quite ready to revert to bullrush or similar. Then towards the end of first level the wizard started to realise the greatness of thunderwave to push monsters of ledges and back into his spells. Now all of our characters have something to slide or push an enemy. The rangers comes at level 2, the fighters is an at will. Retraining is wonderful and we have been using it a lot to try out different stuff
Also, when you first meet a monster that does something cool, it often makes the players want to try that too. So after meeting kobolds and realising how damn evasive and shifty they are, I wanted to do something similar with my ranger
- Anyone know how exactly a portcullis is supposed to work? If I were going to do it again, I might make it a skill challenge to lift. Instead I ruled on the fly, making it a difficult athletics check to bend bar / lift gate. Dr. Caldwell got a 27 on his aided athletics check, jamming the damn thing up into the ceiling with no problem whatsoever.
Since I did not see an answer...
I think you made the right call, but maybe wrong DC?
A portcullis is pretty much lifted straight up by simple pulleys; it is counter weighted somewhat, or else it would be nearly unliftable. But for a person to lift by brute force from the portcullis itself? Yikes.
So baring using levers or a clever rope set-up, I would say lifting the thing is an Athletics (or pure Strength) check. To get it jammed up in the ceiling would mean it was slammed so hard the stonework of the wall itself was broken and got wedged (or you could be nice and say the pulley either jammed, or had a self locking mechanism, but the latter seems anti-security).
I am sure there are many who will point out flaws in my above statements, but that is the beauty of open discourse.
Besides, I am running late, so no time to pretty this post up.
I think it was the right call. The DC could've been harder but then you run the risk of losing that cool moment of triumph by the PCs lifting the portcullis while their teammate was in dire straits. Gosh, I think that is the whole soul of D&D cool moments like that (well next to rolling that critical to kill the BBEG anyway!). I'm enjoying reading this account. It's fun and opens my eyes as to how to be a better DM/player. Well done! (Now if I could only find a regular group - lol )
I think it was the right call. The DC could've been harder but then you run the risk of losing that cool moment of triumph by the PCs lifting the portcullis while their teammate was in dire straits.
I'm not sure if I could have made the DC higher. With the party at 1st level and the newly revised DCs setting a hard skill task at DC 20, I thought topping DC 25 would be enough to keep the trap open.
Yay, DMing on the fly!
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My question for you Kev is how did you clue in the players that there was stuff they could interact with in the environment, or did you just decribe it and let them decide, or was it a matter of them never being in a position to notice the possibilities?
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