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The weird thing about healing potions, in all editions, is that they are more effective the fewer hit points you have.
In 4e, a wizard with 10 Con will have 20 hp; while a fighter with 10 Con will have 25 hp. So the heroic tier healing potion that heals 10 hp can heal 50% of the wizard's hp but only 40% of the fighter's hp.
Healing surges, by contrast, are always equal to 1/4 your hp, so they scale with level, and they also scale with hit points. Does that make any sense? In the same wizard and fighter example, the wizard's healing surge will heal 5 hp, or 25% of his max, while the fighter's healing surge will heal 6 hp, or (almost) 25% of his max.
(Yes, the math is a bit off because of rounding. You get the point.)
If we look at higher level versions of the wizard and fighter, say that eventually the wizard has 30 hp and the fighter has 60 hp. The 10-point potion heals 33% of the wizard's hp but only 16.6% of the fighter's hp. It's still a good deal for the wizard -- better than a surge -- but it's not a very good deal for the fighter. (Obviously, healing is never useless, but its value relative to the opportunity cost of using it (i.e., the action(s) it takes to use it) goes down.)
Now, as Plane Sailing pointed out, there are paragon and epic tier versions of healing potions too, so you don't end up with something riduculous like the 150 hp fighter still chugging 10 hp healing potions (when his surge value is 37!).
I wonder if the game would still be balanced if healing potions said:
When you use this item, heal hit points as if you had spent a healing surge.
Would that make them too good? they would basically be extra surges per day. They would always heal 25% of your max hp, but they would never cost you an actual surge.
That way if a fighter picks up a potion and drinks it, it is exactly as effective (relative to his max hp) as if a wizard picks up a potion and drinks it. This gets around some weird situations like, "No, Tordek, don't drink that potion -- give it to Mialee; she'll get more use out of it." Shouldn't the magic of the potion work just as well for either character?
I know, I know; hp are just an abstraction, and it's just a game. But I wonder if the "healing potion = free extra healing surge" was tried and found lacking in some way.
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I wonder if the game would still be balanced if healing potions said:
When you use this item, heal hit points as if you had spent a healing surge.
Would that make them too good? they would basically be extra surges per day. They would always heal 25% of your max hp, but they would never cost you an actual surge.
The reason why 4e potions do not do that is because they have a monetary value and can be bought. A potion such as you propose is equally useful at all levels, so how do you price that when characters have tons of coin at higher levels? With the fixed-hp potions, PCs need to buy bigger & more expensive versions to keep up with the times.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how the leader-less party works out. I still can't believe you guys run 10 year + campaigns. Our groups are way too ADD for that - myself and the other GMs burn out and need breaks, or the story breaks down, or people want to try out different characters. I think the longest campaign I've ever been involved with was just a hair under 2 years, and I played 3 different characters during that campaign.
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
Now, as Plane Sailing pointed out, there are paragon and epic tier versions of healing potions too, so you don't end up with something riduculous like the 150 hp fighter still chugging 10 hp healing potions (when his surge value is 37!).
I wonder if the game would still be balanced if healing potions said:
When you use this item, heal hit points as if you had spent a healing surge.
Would that make them too good? they would basically be extra surges per day. They would always heal 25% of your max hp, but they would never cost you an actual surge.
It would be a disaster!
One of the main points of healing potions costing a surge but giving you less than a surge back (once you've got past the early levels) is to prevent them being fantastically cost effective replacements for leaders. People would be wandering around with bags of healing potions instead of wands of CLW.
If you allowed healing potions to heal without using up healing surges, then it would inflate the party ability to continue acting (and even paragon level parties would be able to afford hundreds of the things in their bag of holding).
Nobody would ever die! (</ hyperbole >)
Cheers
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It's always best not to think things through before you post them. That way, you look like you really have a firm grasp on the rules, and others will respect your opinion in the future.
I still can't believe you guys run 10 year + campaigns. Our groups are way too ADD for that - myself and the other GMs burn out and need breaks, or the story breaks down, or people want to try out different characters. I think the longest campaign I've ever been involved with was just a hair under 2 years, and I played 3 different characters during that campaign.
About 3 years is the longest I've ever played in or run, but Pcats group has several advantages over mine --Great Players & Great DMs being the most notable.
Though my group has chosen to not up-rev to 4e, I'm watching this thread with great interest, not least because Piratecat always has tons of stuff worth shamelessly stealing both plotwise and mechanics/style wise. Since I happen to be starting a campaign about now, I'm sure there will be several useful bits.
__________________ For the morning will come. Brightly it will shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn. -WSC 10/21/40
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Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how the leader-less party works out. I still can't believe you guys run 10 year + campaigns. Our groups are way too ADD for that
Heh! I think it helps that
* Piratecat is really good at creating long story arcs, so that we continue to stay engaged over long periods of time. If we'd stopped his Defenders campaign after a few years, there would have been too many unresolved storylines!
* the players are folks with a dramatic bent who really enjoy getting into & developing their characters. I played Malachite in the Defenders, and really dug watching him evolve from his original concept. If I'd stopped playing him after 2 years, he wouldn't have changed that much! That's why I've written my new PC with a bunch of "blanks", so that I can fill him in over time.
Thanks for the response--it must be kind of a strange (perhaps really cool?) feeling that SOOO many people on these boards feel like they "know" your character through the story hours. I know that I've spent a lot of time reading them. You guys must have a blast when you play. I for one will continue to steal for the benefit of my game.
Thanks loads
__________________ For the morning will come. Brightly it will shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn. -WSC 10/21/40
OOC Discussion of Rhiannon: Scions of a Lost Empire PNP. Click Here.
Heh! I think it helps that
* Piratecat is really good at creating long story arcs, so that we continue to stay engaged over long periods of time. If we'd stopped his Defenders campaign after a few years, there would have been too many unresolved storylines!
* the players are folks with a dramatic bent who really enjoy getting into & developing their characters. I played Malachite in the Defenders, and really dug watching him evolve from his original concept. If I'd stopped playing him after 2 years, he wouldn't have changed that much! That's why I've written my new PC with a bunch of "blanks", so that I can fill him in over time.
Off-topic, but Malachite was a great character man. True paladin, not a Miko-style stick-up-the-butt class feature, but at the same time, always felt really really close to taking the smiting just a BIT too far and falling. (Haven't read his early years, just the White Kingdom part of the storyhour, but still very enjoyable). Congrats.
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
Run #2 of Piratecat’s Capria game was tonight. Great fun, unsurprisingly.
A quick plot-summary: we embarked on a mission to hunt down and (presumably) kill a legendary “dog gobbler” that was plaguing a nearby halfling river-village. Several dogs had vanished from homes in the past few days, and so we, fresh recruits of the Grey Guard, were sent to investigate.
On arrival, we discovered that, during the two day canoe trip to reach the village, an actual halfling baby had been kidnapped (silently, while the parents were sleeping in the same small hut), and a baby-sized doll-like construct made of twigs and reeds had been left in its place.
In the course of investigating the crime scene, we ended up in a combat with the doll. It had some brutal ability that did significant damage merely by dint of being examined. (We initially thought it was contact poison, but it turned out to be some kind of psychic attack). Even thinking about it and keeping track of its whereabouts required checks. Still, after some fumbling around and taking psychic damage, we found it hiding under a bed. We flipped the bed over and pummeled it to “death,” though not before taking more psychic damage, and with the stick-doll confusing Dr. Caldwell into stabbing Cobalt with his rapier. (Over the course of the encounter, Cobalt was reduced from 24 to 9 hit points, without the thing ever making an obvious attack roll. Sheesh!)
That night, having posted guards (and with all village babies kept in the town hall under PC watch), the paladin Toiva noticed a shadow down in the water. After sounding the alert for the rest of the party to wake, she Challenged the whatever-it-was and jumped into the shallow water to confront it. Turns out “it” is actually several “its,” small but with huge mouths full of teeth. PCat left us on a cliffhanger – Toiva surrounded by monsters with the rest of us charging out to join the battle. We hope the paladin survives until we arrive!
It was another fairly rules-light game, with just the one small combat, and lots of perception rolls. Now, granted, we’re investigating a crime, so Perception is clearly the prominent skill here. But, combining this game and the previous game, we’ve easily made more Perception rolls than all other skill-roll types combined. There’s nothing wrong with PCat’s adventure design, mind you – I’d guess it’s more to do with our play style, though it’ll be interesting to see if and how other skills become relevant. (My character’s Perception roll is a “-1,” but I can still assist, which is most of what I did.) For the record, we also made checks this run for Insight, Nature, Streetwise, Stealth and Arcana. Oh, and Bluff, as part of impromptu rules for playing cards. Bluff and Insight checks were rolled for each participant, and combined into a “how well are you playing tonight” composite score. Nifty and sensible.
The combat was less than two rounds long, though intense. I used an Action Point and my Encounter power, while the paladin used her Daily Power. (And I did manage to score a hit this game... hooray!) I had a 28 initiative score, so on the first round, going first, I used a standard action to flip the bed out of the way, and my Action Point to attack with Torturous Strike. I hit, and with the Sneak Attack damage from being a rogue going first, did 18 points of damage. (And my die rolls were crap – 4, 2, 1 and 1 on 2d8+2d4) Toiva actually missed with her Radiant Delirium, but even her half-damage was significant. A third hit from either Logan or Dr. Caldwell (can’t recall whom) finished it off.
Figuring that we'd likely only have one (at most) more combat before getting extended rest, we surged ourselves back to full after the battle. Cobalt had to use 3 of his 7 surges during and after the fight -- I suspect the others had to use one or two.
Also, after the battle, our Grey Guard cloak pins -- made of some mystery-substance called "Witch-water," glowed with power, and became +1 cloak pins (neck slot) -- woot! (And a very cool way to deliver a treasure parcel.)
Oh, and I almost forgot -- before we set out, our Commander gave us each a book-standard Healing Potion, which I'm guessing will be largely consumed before the night is over.
Still nothing but positives to report – the little combat was brisk and exciting, the role-playing was entirely unhindered, and the skill checks were plentiful and meaningful. We haven't yet delved into a bunch of secondary systems (Rituals, Diseases, stuff like that), and our two fights thus far have been against single foes, though that part is clearly about to change!
Last edited by Sagiro; 23rd October 2008 at 09:58 PM..
I think the hefty perception checks go hand in hand with (a) an investigation, and (b) encountering foes who are stealthy by nature. The PCs did quite a bit of aiding one another, with four of the heroes aiding the one person who had the best scores. It resulted in some fairly impressive DCs at 1st level, including a DC 28 perception roll at one point. Not too shabby.
This session was my attempt at experimenting with a "I-thought-this-was-lame-at-first" monster. The bundle of sharpened river-sticks, mud and reeds that they fought was a clay scout homunculus (spoiler in place for the moment for Sagiro and my players) that had a different appearance. It looked more like the stick bundles from the Blair Witch Project, and never explicitly moved when anyone was looking at it. That gave it a creepier, more mysterious feel than I had originally expected.
I'm finding that my players have requested overhead area maps of their locations at both sessions so far. This is clearly something that I'm going to need to start preparing with more frequency. In both cases so far I've already had a mental image of the towns, so it hasn't been a problem to just sketch it out on a note card. I think there's some benefit to preparing these, though. It may be worth doing something formal for Floodford, the town they'll spend quite a bit of time in.
While this game featured less combat, it had quite a bit of character development from everyone but Stront (whose player is ill and who slept instead of gaming.) I treasure these moments.
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So are you guys using a battlemat and minis/counters? I know from talking with you and playing your games, that you trend away from using them, PC. But 4e is designed with them in mind so I wondered if you are using them for this campaign. Granted, the combats thus far could easily have been handled without them. Just curious.
Perception has been far and away the most dominant skill check in my 4E campaign as well... much to the chagrin of my players, who don't have a decent Perception score between them. This is a situation I'm sure one of them will rectify soon. Cool update!
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
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An additional note about the stick doll monster: because it was a (seemingly) inanimate doll, and because at first we thought it was damaging us via contact poison while we handled it, the thing managed to get in several psychic attacks before the PC's even knew there was a combat going on!. So, basically, it got something like 4 or 5 free attacks on us before we even thought to roll initiative.
I see on the wiki that the "Bundle of sharpened riversticks" was a level 2 Lurker, but it did much more damage to the party than the level 4 Soldier Crocodile from the previous combat. Damn you Piratecat!
Stront (whose player is ill and who slept instead of gaming.) I treasure these moments.
me too. It is so much less hassle when some or your players are sleeping, at least that is what I've always found
I love the repurposing of the clay scout. It sounded really nifty. The business about not moving while being watched reminded me of one at the greatest new Dr Who episodes, called "Blink"
__________________ Plane Sailing
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