4e / GSL Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by Joshua Randall

The Heal skill is far from useless outside of combat. There are two key rituals that depend on a high Heal check for maximum usefulness

I didn't say it was useless -- just that it seems silly that the skill only heals disease and such, and is not helpful with wounds.

[WizarDru]

Originally Posted by Blackjack

I didn't say it was useless -- just that it seems silly that the skill only heals disease and such, and is not helpful with wounds.

I know a couple of my players felt the change to the 'heal economy' was perhaps the most jarring part of the shift to 4e. We found, though, that the cleric's powers greatly enhanced our survivability in that regard. In fact, the best change to the cleric for us was that the person wasn't forced to ONLY be the party healer, but could heal while doing other things. Being able to strike an opponent and give my fighter 3 temporary hp, for example, proved very beneficial, as did enhancing the fighter's healing surges using his clerical powers to make them more effective.

The joke around the table was that the cleric should be named BASF...."I don't heal you, I make your healing better."

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by WizarDru

I know a couple of my players felt the change to the 'heal economy' was perhaps the most jarring part of the shift to 4e.

That's certainly been my experience. Not only do you have to rethink how you heal (e.g. it's not just about the cleric any more), but you have to rethink the idea of what healing and wounds even mean (losing hp no longer necessarily represents taking an actual wound, since clearly normal people don't all regenerate at will). That's a big change from how things went from Basic Set through 3e.

[Plane Sailing]

I found it at the same time jarring and yet more conceptually satisfying, if that makes sense!

I like the way that people can get a second wind themselves in combat. I especially like the way that healing spells are relatively as good for all people (i.e. basic heal restores roughly 1/4 your hit points whether 1st level or 21st level). It eliminates the wierdness that I always felt was present were CLW gets someone back from a mortal wound if they are 1st level, but only removes a scratch when they are 20th.

So it is very different to every way that hp have worked in previous editions - although it is probably more in keeping with the way that hit points have been described in almost all previous editions!

Overall, it is one of my favourite changes in 4e.

Cheers

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I found it at the same time jarring and yet more conceptually satisfying, if that makes sense!

Sure does. D&D's hp mechanic was always absurd -- as you note, what's a bare scratch to one person was a gaping chest wound to another, so the new surge mechanic really makes sense of damage and healing.

So yeah, the change is jarring when you're coming from a previous edition, but it's a lot more sensible once you get into it.

[Rel]

I thought I'd post here with my new and (possibly?) improved Healing rules. I decided, particularly in light of certain setting elements in my campaign, that I would do away with having to track specific penalties and go with a more broad based approach. Here are the entirety of the rules (and I'm totally open to any comments about them - these aren't playtested and maybe I missed some dire implications):

Healing Rules:

Healing works as normal in most cases. However it is possible for the PC to become “Wounded”. Such a character has suffered physical damage severe enough to make recovery more painful and difficult.

There are two possible ways for a PC to become Wounded:

A PC who fails a Death Save while at negative Hit Points becomes Wounded.

Certain monsters (mostly Elite and Solo monsters) or Traps may cause a PC to become Wounded on a Critical Hit.

While Wounded a PC suffers from the following effects:

They do not regain full hit points after an Extended Rest. A successful Heal check allows them to regain hit points equal to one Healing Surge.

The PC loses full use of their Healing Surges. The PC has the same number of Surges as normal but these may only be used when “activated” by other healing effects (such as Cleric or Warlord Powers or Second Wind). Healing Surges may not otherwise be voluntarily spent in order to regain Hit Points.

A character may attempt to recover from being Wounded after an Extended Rest by making a successful Endurance check. If the PC is under the care of a character Trained in the Heal skill, that roll may be substituted for the Endurance check. In addition it is possible for certain Rituals to give bonuses to this Endurance check or to heal the Wounded condition outright.

[Lackhand]

You're still allowing Second Wind: When can healing surges not otherwise be voluntarily spent?

It sounds like you're trying to prevent short rest healing, but can't you still do that with a series of heal checks?

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Lackhand

You're still allowing Second Wind: When can healing surges not otherwise be voluntarily spent?

It sounds like you're trying to prevent short rest healing, but can't you still do that with a series of heal checks?

The idea was mainly not to let PC's zip back up to full health after either an Extended or Short Rest. I did leave in Second Wind because I think it models a PC who is beat up but manages, through sheer strength of will, to stay in the fight. Also I thought that it might be very important for a party with no Leader type to give them those extra chances to spend Surges.

[Lackhand]

Originally Posted by Rel

The idea was mainly not to let PC's zip back up to full health after either an Extended or Short Rest. I did leave in Second Wind because I think it models a PC who is beat up but manages, through sheer strength of will, to stay in the fight. Also I thought that it might be very important for a party with no Leader type to give them those extra chances to spend Surges.

Cool. That's what I thought. You can still mostly zip up, though -- I'm pretty sure normally you'd be able to second wind or convince the healer to help you 1/10 minutes, thus heal up by simulating an extended rest.

I'm not sure what the rule there would be -- "don't be a dick" I guess?

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Lackhand

Cool. That's what I thought. You can still mostly zip up, though -- I'm pretty sure normally you'd be able to second wind or convince the healer to help you 1/10 minutes, thus heal up by simulating an extended rest.

I'm not sure what the rule there would be -- "don't be a dick" I guess?

Ah I see what you are saying. You are (I think) referring to powers like the Cleric's Healing Word being used to heal them up in fairly short order.

Perhaps an answer to this would be an additional effect while Wounded: Every time you are subject to an effect that would allow you to regain Hit Points at the cost of a Healing Surge, you must spend TWO Surges to get that effect.

That would mean that, yes, the Cleric could get the PC on their feet and at full HP with a few uses of Healing Word. But at the cost of most of the Wounded PC's Healing Surges for the day. And at least magic is being used to do it rather than just waking up fresh and new just 'cuz.

[Lackhand]

Originally Posted by Rel

Ah I see what you are saying. You are (I think) referring to powers like the Cleric's Healing Word being used to heal them up in fairly short order.

Perhaps an answer to this would be an additional effect while Wounded: Every time you are subject to an effect that would allow you to regain Hit Points at the cost of a Healing Surge, you must spend TWO Surges to get that effect.

That would mean that, yes, the Cleric could get the PC on their feet and at full HP with a few uses of Healing Word. But at the cost of most of the Wounded PC's Healing Surges for the day. And at least magic is being used to do it rather than just waking up fresh and new just 'cuz.

Precisely, though I was worried that since you could just second wind, you'd do that instead.

I thought of the 2x cost, but was loathe to recommend it 'cause you had such a neat system already. Good to see we're on the same wavelength

You can still second wind yourself back up onto your feet -- it takes 40 minutes. Maybe that's not a problem, though, since it represents staggering about with a grievous wound, a staple of our favorite fantasy characters.

[TerraDave]

Killing what is essentially a helpfull npc: bad form. Paladin or no paladin.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

So far my initial concerns aren't justified. There is just as much roleplaying, just as much behind-the-scenes maneuvering, and just as much character interaction -- with far easier DM prep, faster and more tactically rich combat (now that the learning curve for each player's powers is diminishing), and a longer adventuring day. Yeah, I'm having a blast

How can all this be true? The internets have declared otherwise!

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Lackhand

Precisely, though I was worried that since you could just second wind, you'd do that instead.

I thought of the 2x cost, but was loathe to recommend it 'cause you had such a neat system already. Good to see we're on the same wavelength

You can still second wind yourself back up onto your feet -- it takes 40 minutes. Maybe that's not a problem, though, since it represents staggering about with a grievous wound, a staple of our favorite fantasy characters.

Hrm. Well, that does have them burning up all their Healing Surges first thing in the morning so they are "good as new" but they are without them for the rest of the day, which makes them fragile. Maybe that's close enough to the effect that I'm looking for.

I'll give it a bit more thought but I'm still open to suggestions.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by TerraDave

Killing what is essentially a helpfull npc: bad form. Paladin or no paladin.

Not to worry, he was far from a helpful NPC. He was a hostile, intimidated foe (even with the -10!) who would have stabbed them in the back at the first opportunity. This wasn't a Meepo situation, and that's purposeful; dog-gobblers are cruel and nasty, and I want them to seem that way.

[Rel]

For what it's worth, rather than clutter this thread further with ideas about my Healing rules, let's move that discussion to my How I Fixed 4e thread, wherein Mearls basically tells me that I'm a genius.

[ashockney]

Originally Posted by WizarDru

The joke around the table was that the cleric should be named BASF...."I don't heal you, I make your healing better."

That's hysterical. Totally stealing that line for gaming tonight.

Loving this thread. Thank you to it's contributors, and for pcat for running. I was one (of the many) that enjoyed the story hours, and I'm sure for the same reasons, I'm enjoying this.

I just started my 4e campaign as well, and we're heading into 3rd level using the FRCG and KoTS. Good times. I'm having insane amounts of fun with the skill challenges. For more on this, check out my blog or our podcast - The Amorphous Blobcast (Amorphous Blob Games (Home)).

It's worth noting that the "shared experience" of D&D is powerful, and it's fun to see the boards coming alive with this again.

[Sagiro]

Whew... if last run was nine kinds of awesome, this one was something like twelve. Most exciting run yet so far in this young campaign. As with all of these updates, I may forget or misremember details, and I invite Piratecat and the other players to chime in. (Also, I’m not going to cover all the cool fictional touches – that’ll be for PCat’s Story Hour!)

As you may recall (or you can go read the last run-summary post), we started deep in enemy territory. We were at a three-way intersection in the underground complex of the dog-gobblers, on a mission to rescue a kidnapped baby before the monsters could eat it. Going left would take us into an empty-seeming barracks. Going right would take us right into a battle-arena filled with dozens (maybe hundreds) of screaming gobblers. Following the distant sounds of both a crying baby and barking dog, we went straight, unnoticed by two nearby gobblers with their backs to us, watching the Big Arena Fight in which the monsters were choosing the King’s Successor.

This led us down a wide, straight hallway, and past a number of tables that were covered with little straw dolls in various stages of construction. Near the tables was a hackle-raising greasy circle on the floor. This was clearly where the goblins made their homunculus baby-replacements – and there were about 20 of them! We speculated that the greasy ring was what brought them to “life.” We thought about sabotaging the place, but that would have both made noise and slowed us down, so we pressed on, with the two rogues (Logan and Cobalt) scouting 20’ or so ahead of the other three.

We soon came to a “T” junction. To the left we heard the barking dog, along with a gobbler voice and an ominous “thwacking” sound. To the right we heard the crying baby. We tried to sneak our way past toward the baby, but as a group we’re not so stealthy. (Probably true of most groups, which move with the stealth of their least stealthy member, though it’s to our benefit that only the least stealthy PC rolls.) We were spotted by a pair of gobbler matrons, preparing a filthy stew in a small kitchen. Battle ensued, and it was quickly (and relatively quietly) won by the heroes, though one of the cooks wielded a mean cleaver and did significant damage to Toiva. We rescued the dog caged in the kitchen, placed it in our Sack of Muffling, and having dealt with that threat, moved quickly in the other direction toward the baby. We moved through a dark trophy room, mostly ignoring it since we could hear the baby crying more loudly. There was a door at the far end of the trophy room, and beyond that door we could hear a gobbler shouting at the baby. Worse, it sounded like the gobbler was striking the baby in an attempt to quiet it down. Infuriated, we kicked in the door.

Logan dashed in first. The room was large, stretching both to the left and right of our doorway. To the left was a cradle, and an old, mean-looking gobbler shaking a crib in frustration. We could see the top of a halfling baby’s head inside the crib..

To the right were three gobblers, who were looking out from a large balcony (backs to us) onto the combat arena below. One of these three wore a crown and wielded a huge bone longsword – ack! The King of the Gobblers! The shouts and hooting of the gobblers in the arena were extremely loud, but not loud enough to mask the sound of our door-kicking; they turned to face Logan. Logan dashed immediately to the gobbler guarding the baby and launched a sneak attack. The rest of us intended to join him, but one of the King’s Minions pulled a lever which brought a portcullis crashing down in the doorway (and onto Cobalt’s feet – hello 5 points of damage.) So there was Logan, on his own against four goblins, with only a single Healing Surge remaining. Uh oh.

But fear not! With a prodigious feat of strength – and with a keen eye for how the portcullis operated mechanically – Dr. Caldwell managed to force the portcullis back up, and the rest of us streamed in. Cobalt ran to flank with Logan, while Strontium dropped a Freezing Cloud on the King and his Minions. The King and one minion were struck by the ice (dropping the minion). Toiva ran to the edge of the icy zone and waited for an enemy to emerge.

The gobbler “babysitter” turned out to be the most dangerous – once bloodied, he did 21 points to Logan in a single hit, nearly dropping him unconscious. The three strikers were able to drop him with concentrated attacks before he could land a second hit. Doc Caldwell then used his First Aid skill to allow Logan to use his last Healing Surge without having to spend an action himself. Logan went back to the battle, while Doc secured the baby.

Meanwhile, The King grabbed the hapless surviving minion, used him as a living shield, and charged forward. He was an extremely formidable gobbler, who lacked the damage-dealing mojo of the babysitter but had a huge amount of health. Still, faced with a striker-heavy team, and a Challenging Paladin, the fight didn’t last too long. His undoing turned out to be an overzealous desire to finish off the obviously-wounded Logan – he ended up enduring three OA’s, one of which was a sneak-attack from Cobalt, as well as suffering the various penalties for not engaging the paladin. So, while he was able to knock Logan down again to a precarious health total, he didn’t survive the following round. (An Intimidate check from Cobalt actually convinced him to flee, and he was killed by the resulting additional OA’s.)

Down below, the arena battle had just ended, and the goblins were now waiting for the King (mysteriously absent from the balcony, from their standpoint) to acknowledge the victor. We wasted no more time. We grabbed some easy-to-snag loot from the King’s opulent chamber, but left a lot behind as we dashed back to the lift. This time the gobblers who were watching the arena heard us arrive, and started shouting an alarm. Not caring much if the lift became unusable later on, we cut one of the tension ropes, which caused the lift platform (with us on it) to rocket upward, just ahead of the surging mass of angry gobblers. Once at the top we shouted some warnings down to them, kicked some burning logs from the bonfire down onto their heads, and closed the huge trapdoors. Strontium, examining the seal that had been placed on the doors, had the sudden realization that the gobblers were Fey-touched, and thus hated iron. We dashed back out to the waiting halflings, and instructed them to bring us all the iron they could find; we used that iron to seal the trapdoors.

We also returned their missing baby and dog, much to the delight of the locals. With the gobblers effectively sealed in their lair, and the baby returned, the halflings hailed us as heroes, held an impromptu party in our honor, and showered us with gifts. Victory! And better, victory with no party member even going unconscious, despite our lack of leader.

Some tactical notes:

- The Gobbler King was a Goblin Underboss – a Level 4 Elite Controller (leader), and his “babysitter” bodyguard was a Goblin Skullcleaver – a Level 3 Brute. I’m not sure about the minions and the cooks.
- Combat was again extremely fast-paced – even the one against the Elite, who had 110 hit points. I’ve oft read the complaint that boss battles can drag on, with the conclusion inevitable yet time-consuming to reach. Not so here! We were all pretty nervous (especially after the 21-point strike from the Skullcleaver), and yet the battle was over quickly. I think our striker-heavy party will help mitigate against the “tree-chopping” complaint about boss battles.
- We finished the adventuring day having completed 8 encounters – the five listed in the previous write-up, plus the fight with the cooks, the fight with the King & Co., and the skill-challenge-ish dash to escape. By the end, Logan was out of Healing Surges, and Cobalt and Toiva each had one remaining. Three of us had used our Potions of Healing. Caldwell was relatively uninjured (I think), and Strontium was unharmed. I think Caldwell was the only one who hadn’t used their Daily. (Hey, Blackjack... is that true? And if so, what were you waiting for? )
- The following Skills were rolled during the session: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Dungeoneering (fat chance), Endurance, Heal, History, Intimidate, Nature, Perception and Stealth. (Thievery was used in a light-hearted way during the party, but shouldn’t really count.)
- Have I mentioned that two flanking rogues can really dish out the damage? Great googly moogly.
- Between the stuff we snagged from the gobblers and the gifts from the halflings, we ended up with a great haul of cash & magic items:

420 GP in jewels and coins, so 84 GP each.
6 more Potions of Healing, a gift from the halfling matriarch
a Dagger of Thieving +1 (level 5 item, AV p.80). Went to Logan.
A Helm of Tactics (Level 4 item, AV p.139) Went to Cobalt.
A Vanguard Longsword +1 (Level 3 item, AV p.81) Went to Toiva.

We also still have the Bag of Muffling, and the halflings gave Strontium a Ritual that fixes leaky boats and improves the quality of one’s fishing.

Next game, as far as we know, will involve reporting back to Commander Pikeline at the Grey Guard, and getting our next assignment. Can’t wait!

[Sagiro]

Forgot to mention: Piratecat announced three player-friendy House Rules for his campaign:

1. If a PC uses a Healing Surge out of combat, a First Aid check adds the healer's WIS bonus to the hit points gained. Works once per injured PC per rest period.

2. Action Points will be handed out after any Important Milestone(tm), and not necessarily only every other Milestone.

3. (Cribbed from Rel, I think) Players can spend an Action Point AND give up a Daily Power, in order to Do Something Really Cool That's Class-Related. Subject to DM approval, of course!

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Sagiro

Forgot to mention: Piratecat announced three player-friendy House Rules for his campaign:

1. If a PC uses a Healing Surge out of combat, a First Aid check adds the healer's WIS bonus to the hit points gained. Works once per injured PC per rest period.

2. Action Points will be handed out after any Important Milestone(tm), and not necessarily only every other Milestone.

3. (Cribbed from Rel, I think) Players can spend an Action Point AND give up a Daily Power, in order to Do Something Really Cool That's Class-Related. Subject to DM approval, of course!

I'm extremely keen to hear how these rules play out in practice. Chances are you guys will get to use them a few times before my campaign kicks off after the new year.

[Piratecat]

A few notes from my perspective:

- Anyone know how exactly a portcullis is supposed to work? If I were going to do it again, I might make it a skill challenge to lift. Instead I ruled on the fly, making it a difficult athletics check to bend bar / lift gate. Dr. Caldwell got a 27 on his aided athletics check, jamming the damn thing up into the ceiling with no problem whatsoever.

- House rule #3, above, should technically read "Do Something Really Cool That's Daily-Power-Related." I think that'll help constrain it a little more.

- My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.

- Dr. Caldwell's personality is cautious. He made sure to save the baby instead of engaging the Dog-gobbler King in a fight. That ensured success while it removed one striker from the equation, but the others still pumped out a tremendous amount of damage. It was a tactical mistake for the King to charge the injured Logan to try to finish him off (and thus eating a whole lot of sneak attacky-OA damage), but the King was busy panicking. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

- Sagiro is mistaken when he says that the gobblers were fighting for a new King. Ha! With new access to the outside world, they were fighting to determine the new dog-gobbler champion. It's a shame the PCs didn't get captured and weren't made to fight in the arena. It was a tilt-floored, hazard-strewn battlefield that required athletics and acrobatics checks each round just to stay on your feet while fighting. I think I've seen Flash Gordon one too many times.

- The PCs still don't really understand why dogs and babies were being kidnapped, or what the gobblers were up to, although they have some theories.

- I still can't believe how quickly that gobbler.. err, goblin skullcrusher went down. Other than getting to plunge his claws into Logan's belly, he was dazed on the first round and then died like a punk.