Classes Barbarian is up!!!

[Larrin]

Originally Posted by JVisgaitis

Um, same thing. If they can't use Rage Strike until 5th Level, they would be minus 1 at will power until 5th Level. So technically, they'd have only 1.

Rage strike is a class feature, NOT an at will attack. You get your two at wills AND you get rage strike, just the same as how a wizard gets two at wills AND 4 cantrips. Rage strike is a barbarian cantrip (.....well not really, but its the same idea)

consdier the suggested build.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Perception
Suggested At-Will Powers: howling strike,
recuperating strike
Suggested Encounter Power: avalanche strike
Suggested Daily Power: bloodhunt rage

NOTE: he has two at wills, neither of which is rage strike. (compare to warlock build advice, its "chosen for you" at wills are listed)

Rage strike isn't nearly as klunky or blatantly unfair as people seem to be saying, IMO. Its a simple idea. You are in rage. Burn a different rage to do this attack. This is so you can do big attacks, while keeping the rage you have. If you don't like it, don't use it, and you will never suffer, but if it wasn't there, it would be annoying that you couldn't use another daily level damage without leaving the rage you want to stay in.

As for not using it until level 5: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM. Seriously. You can't use it before level 5, BUT you don't need it before level 5, you won't even want to use it before level 5, and its not such a big deal that you will in ANY CONCEIVABLE WAY be inconvenienced not being able to use it before level 5. However, what if, say, half-orcs can rage as a racial ability. Well then orcs can use it at level 1. What if there are magical items that let you rage, well then you can use this ability before level 5. Anything is possible, so the fact you get Rage strike from level 1 means that if you somehow enter a rage via non-class methods, you can still use it. I seriously can not see anyway in which this is, or could be, a problem.

[Obryn]

I guess I'm not seeing a problem with Rage Strike. To me, it's just a shorthand.

The designers could have instead put a Special line into all Rages. Something like...

Special: If you are already in a Rage, you can expend this Daily power in a single attack, doing X[W] damage. You gain no other benefits from this use of the Rage, and you stay in your current Rage uninterrupted.

Rather than throw that into each and every power, they made it a class feature. There's no mechanical difference between the two approaches; just arguments about 'elegance' that could be made on both sides of the equation.

-O

[infocynic]

So, fun things ... a Minotaur Barb with an oversized Executioner's Axe gets a 2d6 Brutal 2 High Crit weapon. Sounds like a great choice for a barb.
I build this as
18/18/14/8/10/13 [you may switch the int and wis if you like]
Heroic feats:
Level 1: Chain mail prof
Level 2: W Prof E Axe (optionally switch w/1)
Level 4: W Focus Axes
Level 6: ??? barb-only feat? Something with +attack while raging maybe? I could hope. Toughness is good too.
Level 8: Scale prof
Level 10: See level 6.
Paragon:
Level 11: Scale spec. Optionally retrain level 6 or 10 feat for Back to the Wall or Blood Thirst.
Rest of paragon: pick up Lightning reflexes and iron will, there's a few other choices like danger sense, but not a whole lot I'm dying to get.
Epic:
Axe mastery
Triumphant Attack
...

All I know is that 9[W] on a 2d6 brutal 2 is 81 damage on average. While that isn't something you can do all the time, it has some attraction.

[IncompleteUserNa]

Originally Posted by Obryn

I guess I'm not seeing a problem with Rage Strike. To me, it's just a shorthand.

The designers could have instead put a Special line into all Rages. Something like...

Special: If you are already in a Rage, you can expend this Daily power in a single attack, doing X[W] damage. You gain no other benefits from this use of the Rage, and you stay in your current Rage uninterrupted.

Rather than throw that into each and every power, they made it a class feature. There's no mechanical difference between the two approaches; just arguments about 'elegance' that could be made on both sides of the equation.

-O

The number of people confused and upset about rage strike suggests that there is a key distinction. The first time you read the rage strike statblock, it isn't clear what it does, when it does what it does, or why you would need it to do what it does. Once you grind on it for a while you have a Eureka moment, which is kind of fun, but making it clearer is worth inflating the wordcount slightly.

[TerraDave]

Originally Posted by Wonka

Just cause Conan has a low Int, doesnt mean the controlling player does

Looking at it again, maybe not that bad afterall...

but ragestrike just seems uneeded. I could see it if rages were encounter powers (though it would have to be toned down). But one goal of 4E was to give charecters more durability. Having a charecter that burns through all its dailies like that, and can only do its "main thing" once a day, would seem to go against that goal.

[Larrin]

Originally Posted by TerraDave

Having a charecter that burns through all its dailies like that, and can only do its "main thing" once a day, would seem to go against that goal.

Rage is not the barbarians 'main thing'. Charging and hacking is its 'main thing' and it gets to do that all day long. Raging is a significant boost to the charging and hacking, and is therefore limited. The barbarian has no more incentive to burn through his dailies than a fighter or rogue. Less even, since in order to burn through them he must forgo something nifty in the future. If anything Barbarians are the least motivated to 'go nova', and without rage strike, they'd be super un-motivated, which is not at all barbarian-like. This way the at least have a choice, pure damage now or useful rage later. Its a line that the barbarian must walk, and one that players will learn to use to their benefit.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Stalker0

4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.

What are you say exactly?
That because 3rd edition did'nt follow the creation rules monsters turned out unbalanced (That Damn Crab for instance)
Are are you saying ther ooposite? But then I say That Damn Crab.

Writers made broken monsters that didn't conform to formula too much.

I will agree that Barb is awesome as a hybrid Class: Striker with a dash of defender (opposite what the Fighter is basically; a Defender with Striker tendencies).

[Skyscraper]

Raging Strike is not an appealing power to me. You need to burn you cool, strongest powers (dailies) each time you use it. It's like a heartbreak each time you use that power.

Plus, all other classes get their class-defining abilities at level 1. Not the Barb, he gets it at level 5. 5 levels can be a long wait depending on how often you play and how fast you level.

Trading a level 1 rage power for Raging Strike is doubly frustrating, since you get more out of your level 1 rage power than from Raging Strike, except if you want to keep you first rage power benefits going.

This is really a bad mechanic overall IMO, and this is the first class in any D&D edition that i read and say to myself: i would never pick this class for my PC.

Sky

[MrMyth]

Originally Posted by Rechan

It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to hit with all 6.

Well, here's the numbers I'm looking at, and the reason that power seems absurd.

Let's assume we're level 30 characters fighting someone with AC 45. I am, admittedly, not bothering accounting for critical hits in my numbers - but given that crits will generally be pretty darn good for the barbarian, with his free attack and the fact that taking 6 attacks makes the odds of a crit rather high, I think they'll tend to work in his favor anyway.

Level 29 Rogue Daily: Assassin's Point
Assumptions: Iron Armbands of Power +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Rapier, Backstabber, Dex 30, Str 24, Brutal Rogue, Kensai, Combat Advantage.
Attack: +37 vs AC
Damage: 17d8+49; Miss: Half Damage.
Average Damage: 104

Level 29 Ranger Daily: Three-in-One Shot
Assumptions: Bracers of Archery +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Greatbow, Lethal Hunter, Dex 30, Wis 24, Pit Fighter, Combat Advantage.
Attack: +35 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC
Damage: 2d12+38 per attack, +3d8; Miss: Half Damage.
Average Damage: 133

Level 27 Hurricane of Blades
Assumptions: Iron Armbands of Power +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Mordenkrad, Str 30, Con 24, Hammer Rhythm, Kensai, Combat Advantage, Power Attack.
Attack: +34 vs AC: 2d6+44 (Brutal 1); Miss: 7 Damage.
Average Damage: 177

A level 27 Encounter power simply shouldn't outclass Level 29 Dailies. And, yes, this is with stacking lots of damage so each attack hits hard - but that is generally what strikers will be doing. This doesn't even consider plenty of other boosts that a truly optimized character could achieve.

Still, lets see how it looks if we avoid multiclassing and stick to PHB feats and equipment.

Level 29 Rogue Daily: Assassin's Point
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Rapier, Backstabber, Dex 30, Str 24, Brutal Rogue, Combat Advantage.
Attack: +36 vs AC
Damage: 17d8+33; Miss: Half Damage.
Average Damage: 88

Level 29 Ranger Daily: Three-in-One Shot
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Longbow, Lethal Hunter, Dex 30, Combat Advantage.
Attack: +35 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC
Damage: 2d10+19 per attack, +3d8; Miss: Half Damage.
Average Damage: 87

Level 27 Hurricane of Blades
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Maul, Str 30, Con 24, Hammer Rhythm, Combat Advantage, Power Attack.
Attack: +33 vs AC: 2d6+28; Miss: 7 Damage.
Average Damage: 118

Still in the lead. The daily powers seem to reliably be doing 75% of the damage of this encounter power. Clearly, something is off.

Now, you can trump it with powers that hit multiple targets - area effect powers, Hail of Arrows, etc. But spreading out damage is generally less effective (and you aren't always able to get multiple targets, thus mitigating such powers), which is why the rules seem ok with letting multi-target powers do more overall damage than single-target powers. They just don't do more damage to a single foe.

Similarly, if the barbarian is surrounded by 6 enemies, there are countless lower level 'close burst 1' powers that technically do the same amount of damage. But Hurricane of Blades can be unloaded into a single target, which is simply absurd for damage potential - it would be impressive as a daily power, and is downright insane as an encounter power.

How to fix it? As mentioned above, divvying up that damage among multiple targets is more acceptable. Perhaps give him 6 attacks, but no more than 3 can go at a single target? I suspect something along those lines will work best - or at least provide a start to balancing the power. I like the concept of it, but an encounter power really shouldn't be the highest single-target damage power in the game.

[JVisgaitis]

Originally Posted by Larrin

As for not using it until level 5: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM.

Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.

[MrMyth]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

9. This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways. Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex.

AC 24 is pretty inaccurate for level 30 (though your point itself remains intact.)

10 (base) + 15 (level) + 5 (elderhide) + 6 (enhancement) +1 (dex or int) = AC 37. Now, that is still low enough that enemies of his level are going to hit him pretty much all the time. Chainmail bumps it up to AC 43, which is a pretty enormous jump for 1 feat - though it is still low enough to get hit pretty often. If he throws 4 feats at the problem, so he can get platemail and armor specialization, he's looking at AC 46, and suddenly has a 50/50 shot of getting hit by most enemies - he may have had to put aside some nice other choice in return for those armor feats.

I suspect chainmail will be almost impossible to pass up at higher levels. For a barbarian that completely dumps Dex and Int, it makes a difference of 3 AC at Heroic, 5 AC at Paragon, and 6 AC at Epic. (Since level 11 and 21 will boost your Dex and Int.) 6 AC for 1 feat is an excellent trade - I can't imagine turning it down. Maybe add in Scale and Armor Specialization for 2 more points of AC, along with no armor check or speed penalties.

Now, for a character who starts with some Dex, it isn't as urgent a feat. A starting Dex of 14 means at level 1, Chainmail is only +1 AC over Hide. I'm sure the barbarian will have plenty of better offensive choices to spend his feats on for a while. In the end, no matter what he does, his AC isn't going to be so great - but his high hp and access to countless temps (and Resist All from certain powers) will help with that quite a bit. What it won't help with is the conditions he gets plagued by - saving throw boosts are quite valuable for this guy, I imagine.

But back him up with a Paladin and a Cleric - to keep him safe and healed and give him free saving throws when needed - and he definitely looks likely to completely destroy the enemies in his path.

[Phaezen]

Originally Posted by JVisgaitis

Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.

The thing is, it is not an ability that other classes need, they can spam thier dailies as they see fit. A barbarian's daily attack powers all have an ongoing effect, but you can only have one at a time. This ability of thiers allows them the choice to keep thier current rage (gained from using a daily attack power) up while gaining the advantage of the damage dealt by using a daily attack. The fact that it is useless until level 5, is besides the point as all classes only have 1 daily attack power until level 5.

Phaezen

[GoodKingJayIII]

Lots of great analysis on this thread. Thanks guys.

As it stands, my initial look at the barbarian is that we have a very, very strong 1st-level class. Huge hit points, lots of temporary hit-point opportunities, and excellent at-wills: sign me up. Damage does not seem out of line with other strikers, but I am concerned about the hit points. With high Str/Con, heavy armors are a no-brainer and should be easy to achieve without much fuss. I think we'll be seeing many barbs taking Scale proficiency by Level 4, maybe as early as level 2.

Rage Strike is just... whacky. At first glance, it looks absolutely gross. And maybe it is, but it's hard to say without seeing it in action. The inability to use it until 5th level is not a balancing factor for all those damage dice. What I'd really like to see is an analysis of Barbarian vs. Ranger vs. Rogue for most consistent damage. Say, average damage over 1000 hits. I think that's a more telling statistic than simply looking at the amount of damage a barbarian can do in one hit, or even one fight. I'm imagining some very ruinous combos with Minotaurs and Oversized executioner axes, but maybe that's just my irrational power creep fears rearing their ugly heads.

I think a Human Ranger/Paragon multiclass Barbarian could be a very interesting combo.

That's all I have to add for now.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike. Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition? Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.

*shrug*

[Mengu]

Originally Posted by Stalker0

1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.

Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.

Agreed. But since there is also a Charisma based barbarian build, it may be better to say constitution or charisma, instead of just constitution, which would favor one build over the other.

Originally Posted by Stalker0

2) Rage Strike encounters novaing. The big question here is, and the one that needs the most playtesting, how good are barbarians when they aren't raging?

Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power. There are plenty of other ways of getting big attacks: items, action points, etc. Rage Strike can be scrapped, and it will have no adverse effect on the class.

Originally Posted by Stalker0

3) Barbarian at-will powers are too good for multiclassing. I actually don't think so on this one. Howling Strike is no twin strike in my opinion. If the rogue takes it, he's having to use a strength attack instead of a dex attack, so he suffers a bit there. And...as others have mentioned paragon multiclassing kind of blows right now. So if I'm giving up paragon paths for barbarian at-wills....is that really a problem?

Again, agreed.

Originally Posted by Stalker0

3) No ability to rage without dailies. I agree there should be a mechanic to allow rage without dailies. I would say when they are bloodied is easiest enough. It lets the barbarian rage for some general benefits, but doesn't give him the power of the daily rages.

There needs to be some clean way to word that. Dragoborns already gain some nice benefits from being bloodied. With all the ways of gaining Temp HP's, that bloodied mechanic can get out of hand. And I wouldn't want people not healing up much between encounters so they can quickly rage.

In general, it does suck that you can only rage once per day for levels 1-4. My players can go through 6-7 encounters in one day, and 1/6 or 1/7 encounters doesn't seem enough. I'd change the rage mechanic so every time a Barbarian uses an action point to gain an extra action, they rage. This would make it more controlled in frequency, and more of a tactical choice for the player.

Originally Posted by Stalker0

4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.

Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.

They have not made any declarations for PC classes for HP's, defenses, healing surges, or anything other game mechanic, based on role. I have no doubt they intend to fully utilize that flexibility both as a design tool and a balancing tool.