Let The Players Manage Themselves Part 3, waitaminute...

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Aeolius

A pity 4e assumed we would drop our current campaigns like yesterday's garbage.

4e (technically the designers and marketers - the game itself is not sentient) assumes no such thing.

They gave warning back when they announced the game, nearly a year before release, that you'd probably not want to port your current campaign over. Giving you a year to consider the issue is not expecting you to drop it "like yesterday's garbage".

Backwards compatibility is as stifling to games as it is to computers and operating systems. There's points in a product lifetime when backwards compatibility must be abandoned, and that does not mean they assume anything about your behavior.

[Adso]

Originally Posted by Umbran

4e (technically the designers and marketers - the game itself is not sentient) assumes no such thing.

They gave warning back when they announced the game, nearly a year before release, that you'd probably not want to port your current campaign over. Giving you a year to consider the issue is not expecting you to drop it "like yesterday's garbage".

Backwards compatibility is as stifling to games as it is to computers and operating systems. There's points in a product lifetime when backwards compatibility must be abandoned, and that does not mean they assume anything about your behavior.

Exactly. While we suggested that you might want to start a new campaign, but many of us are playing in campaigns that started with 3.5. I play in a 4e Pathfinder (Rise of the Runelords) that started in 3e. I just recently converted my online Age of Worms campaign to 4e.

[Aeolius]

I suppose converting a dungeon crawl with PCs using core races and classes would be easier to convert to 4e from 3e. I haven't run a game like that in years.

It is simply easier for me to keep running my undersea World of Greyhawk game under 3.5e than it would be to convert/lose most of the work I have put into the game. 4e simply has less robust options for an aquatic campaign and the easy option usually wins. To be fair I did start the game in July of last year, fairly late in the scope of things. The game I ran before that started as a 1e game in 1998 but converted to 3e shortly after its release.

I did have high hopes of using 4e to flesh out a sylvan campaign concept I have been mulling over for years but that one needs Awakened animals, druids, and greenhags.

[howandwhy99]

Originally Posted by Snoweel

"All the world is not, of course, a stage, but the crucial ways in which it isn't are not easy to specify"

-Erving Goffman, 'Performances' in The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life

Yes, but in order to have discussions in the world we don't call all things "story-things". Like story-life being every kind of living, storybooks being every kind of book (even hypothetical or blank books), or story-games being every kind of game. Because stories can be about anything, calling everything a story-thing would make the word non-functional.

Actually, it is too slow in real time, as I sit at the gaming table.

What I want, is for my character to be in the right place, at the right time, often enough for him to have a ridiculously interesting life.

I don't want to chase up a supposedly important plot hook only to find it leads to mindless clearing of a kobold warren that turns out to be completely unconnected to the higher goal.

I want my character to be touched by fate so that he manages to live a life (at least while I'm pulling his strings) that is inordinately choc-full of adventure. I want every choice I make to lead somewhere interesting, whether it's good or bad.

At least while I'm sitting at the table. What my character gets up to between sessions doesn't interest me half as much.

By "biggest" I mean the most exciting, involved and best prepared edge of the campaign flowchart.

I want to take the course of action that the DM is most excited about because this will most likely lead to the best adventure. Obviously the DM knows this information better than myself or my character so it's up to him to make it clear.

And if I'm being railroaded I don't want to know about it.

Predetermining right place, right time? No allowed parts of the world unconnected to your party goals? Characters must be "touched by fate"? Campaign flowchart? DM excited about courses of action you haven't even thought of yet? I think you absolutely want to be railroaded by a DM. And that's perfectly cool. Lots of people want to play in games like that. It's okay not to want to play in those games either though.

To give a different perspective, I know some folks call sandbox play "Disneylands". But if you go to Disneyland and just sit around watching other people, nothing fun is going to happen to you. You actually have to partake in the excitement around you to be included in the fun.

EDIT: I should note people-watching at Disneyland may well be a person's favorite kind of fun. And I wouldn't run a game designed not to let them do that.

[Walknot]

Originally Posted by Umbran

Just FYI - purposely misstating another posters position may seem funny, but it generally doesn't come off well. It's kind of rude, really. So please, don't do that again. Thanks.

If folks have questions about that, please take them to e-mail with any of the mods.

My apology to you howandwhy99, it was rude. By the way, like your acorn avatar.

Will watch out for that in the future, Umbran.

[howandwhy99]

Originally Posted by Walknot

My apology to you howandwhy99, it was rude. By the way, like your acorn avatar.

Will watch out for that in the future, Umbran.

Hey, no problem. I know I myself had no idea what you were meaning. And splicing posts is always a dangerous gambit.

like...acorn...watch out...future

[Snoweel]

Originally Posted by howandwhy99

Yes, but in order to have discussions in the world we don't call all things "story-things". Like story-life being every kind of living, storybooks being every kind of book (even hypothetical or blank books), or story-games being every kind of game. Because stories can be about anything, calling everything a story-thing would make the word non-functional.

I think all kinds of living are stories. Any kind of fiction book is a story (there may be exceptions) and RPGs are most definitely stories. Many other types of game are too, including sports.

Predetermining right place, right time?

Well since all plot hooks are deliberate creations (even if they only became so after their introduction as elements of the fictional gameworld) then where and when they're revealed is arbitrarily up to the DM.

So why not have them appear at the most dramatically poignant moment, rather than randomly?

No allowed parts of the world unconnected to your party goals?

The whole world "exists". It is a fictional creation. Just because the details are vague doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't exist, and if we decide to go there the details will become a lot less vague.

But if we have a clear set of goals why would we bother going off on tangents?

Characters must be "touched by fate"?

We are the PCs. We know that if we look for adventure we'll find it. NPCs don't have this luxury.

Campaign flowchart?

A planning tool. A busy DM can either flesh out the entire world or only those parts of it he/she think the PCs are likely to visit.

The DM knows which parts are likely to interest the PCs because those are the ones with plot hooks dangling from them.

DM excited about courses of action you haven't even thought of yet?

I would hope the DM's excitement is what causes him to develop and then reveal the hook in the first place.

I mean, how can I have thought about a course of action if the DM hasn't made me aware of its existence?

I think you absolutely want to be railroaded by a DM.

As long as there is more than one course of action available I don't care what you call it.

In fact, I'd rather only have two choices to make than an infinite number of them.

As a player I make choices based on what I perceive are the likely consequences of my actions. Though I might truly have infinite choices available to me, I certainly won't be able to confidently guess at the potential consequences of all of them, so the reality is that my likely choices are somewhat limited.

That the DM relies on this fact to more efficiently use his prep time is a good thing. And you are welcome to call it railroading.