4e / GSL 3PP releases Witch Doctor, new controller class, for playtest

[rdonoghue]

Just want to say, the feedback is incredibly useful, thank you all. I'll see if I can answer questions or comments sometime when I'm not about to fall asleep.

-Rob D.

[rdonoghue]

Implements

So, implements make for an interesting question. In an ideal world, I would probably want the mask and something else, like a medicine bag, to be the implements for the witch doctor. It's non-standard, but I could completely support it, and it's strongly thematic and it would just be fun. Plus, from a cynical marketing perspective, it means sometime down the line we could produce a 2 buck pdf of magic items just to support it.

Unfortunately, that does a disservice to anyone who actually plays a witch doctor. As more magic items become available, there will always be many more staffs and rods than there will be little one-off things, so this is a point where some short term cool is sacrificed so the class can be more easily plugged into the game as it grows. Or at least that's the theory.

-Rob D.

PS - Rods are an odd choice, I know, since they are currently slanted so strongly towards Warlocks. However, that will change with time. Artificers can use Rods, and I feel confident other classes will be able to in time as well, so once again it's a matter of looking to the future.

[Jonathan Moyer]

Originally Posted by Rechan

The trade-off being 1d4 damage. That's chicken scratch.

Hmm, if the power is designed to primarily kill minions, I wonder if the damage should be based on an ability modifier instead of a die roll (maybe Cha or Int?). That reduces the amount of rolls and kills minions. I'd probably reduce the bonus to attack to +2.

But all in all this is a really neat class! With this class and the barbarian preview, I think I have enough primal/spirit badassitude for my short-term needs.

[Zaukrie]

Give the witch doctor a ritual that allows it to convert rods or staffs or whatever into fetishes and masks. heck, allow it to have an attack that tries to steal a rod or implement from a player. Imagine the horror of the PC that sees his favorite implement converted to a fetish, never to be used again.

[Archus]

Originally Posted by rdonoghue

Implements
So, implements make for an interesting question. In an ideal world, I would probably want the mask and something else, like a medicine bag, to be the implements for the witch doctor. It's non-standard, but I could completely support it, and it's strongly thematic and it would just be fun. Plus, from a cynical marketing perspective, it means sometime down the line we could produce a 2 buck pdf of magic items just to support it

I think masks and medicine bags would be much cooler. Easily enough noted that masks are a form of rods and medicine bags a form of wand (or whatever) - it could even just be a sidebar on "Reskinning Implements". So no support is needed. Since 4E is based around the assumption the DM will put in items just for your characters reskinning is pretty easy.

Much like I plan on reskinning swordmages to be hammermages, staff mages, etc.

[Shroomy]

Originally Posted by Archus

I think masks and medicine bags would be much cooler. Easily enough noted that masks are a form of rods and medicine bags a form of wand (or whatever) - it could even just be a sidebar on "Reskinning Implements". So no support is needed. Since 4E is based around the assumption the DM will put in items just for your characters reskinning is pretty easy.

If I was going to implementize the medicine bag, I'd make them more like orbs; the affect on saving throws seems more apt.

[Staffan]

Some quick comments:

1. Area blasts can cause rules problems in corner cases. Literally. Area attacks measure cover and such from the target square, which means you can use them to shoot around corners.

2. Flavor-wise, it feels a bit strange to have the "throw around elemental energy" WD use Con, and the "deal with spirits" WD use Cha.

3. Moving people around in the initiative order is weird, and feels fiddly. If you want Disjointed Strike to essentially cost half a round, have it make the target dazed instead.

4. Flavor-wise, Cage of Lightning should probably say something like "if the target leaves its square by mundane movement", allowing for things like teleporting out of the square without crossing the bars.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Shroomy

If I was going to implementize the medicine bag, I'd make them more like orbs; the affect on saving throws seems more apt.

On durations, too. It's just more appropriate that way.

Originally Posted by Staffan

Flavor-wise, it feels a bit strange to have the "throw around elemental energy" WD use Con, and the "deal with spirits" WD use Cha.

I would expect one talking to spirits and negotiating powers be related to one's force of will and persuasiveness. Which seems pretty up Charisma's ally.

Or, to put it another way, look at the Infernal Warlock. His 'throwing buckets of damage and fire" are based on Con attacks. The Dragonborn's breath is based on con (at least for damage).

[Staffan]

Originally Posted by Staffan

2. Flavor-wise, it feels a bit strange to have the "throw around elemental energy" WD use Con, and the "deal with spirits" WD use Cha.

Originally Posted by Rechan

I would expect one talking to spirits and negotiating powers be related to one's force of will and persuasiveness. Which seems pretty up Charisma's ally.

Or, to put it another way, look at the Infernal Warlock. His 'throwing buckets of damage and fire" are based on Con attacks. The Dragonborn's breath is based on con (at least for damage).

Bah, I meant it the other way around. The document has the Tempest WD (energy) being Cha-based, and the Resolute WD (spirits) being Con-based. That doesn't exactly feel right.

Oh, and another thing I thought of: you might want to include some more at-will powers, seeing as each stat only has two. I feel one of the mistakes WOTC made with the PHB was having some classes use different stats for different builds, and then only including two at-wills for each stat. That reduces variety within each build (all Wis-based clerics will use Lance of Faith and Sacred Flame), plus it makes the human bonus at-will ability kind of pointless.

From this angle, good classes are the fighter, the rogue, and the wizard; and bad classes are the cleric, the paladin, and the warlock (though the 'lock gets some props for having Eldritch Blast use either Cha or Con). Rangers and warlords are about half-way, in that they have some generally useful powers, and some highly build-based.

[Shroomy]

I've read through the entire playtest document and had some time this weekend while driving to a wedding to think about the class. Here are some of my thoughts:

Overall, I really like the class features, though I think that witch doctor's mask needs some tweaking to address some technical issues I mentioned above. Evil Eye is awesome and I hope that their are some feats or magic items that will make it more potent by inflicting a penalty to the re-rolled saving throw. Now that said, I think that the witch doctor should get the ritual caster feat as a bonus feat; IMO, it makes sense given their traditional role in a tribal society (especially the healing and divinatory aspects). However, the ritual book should probably be re-conceptualized so its not a literal book (i.e. runic carvings on a fetish, mystic tatoos, a necklace with intricate knotting, etc.). I'd start them with two rituals like the other ritual caster classes.

Unfortunately, I was kind of disappointed by the powers (but not all of them). One of the stated goals of the playtest document was to explore the controller role and differentiate it from the wizard, but I feel that the plethora of powers with the fire, cold, lightning, and thunder keywords and damage types really makes the witch doctor seem like a wizard to me. Basically, if you scratch out "Spirit" and replace it with "Arcane," would these powers really look out of place if a wizard used them; IMO, for the most part, the answer would be "No." I would make the following changes to better distinguish the witch doctor from the wizard:

1. I'm going to again look to the traditional view of a witch doctor/tribal shaman to better define them, and one of those roles is of a traditional healer. I think that the witch doctor should be a controller that shades into the leader role, kind of like how the paladin is a defender that shades into leader. A couple of powers with the Healing keyword would go a long way in this regard, perhaps integrated with a few of the encounter or daily powers so it doesn't intrude on the role of the primary healer.

2. While powers with the fire, lightning, cold, and thunder damage type keywords are OK, I would reduce the overall number of those powers, instead substituting in more powers that use the necrotic, poison, and psychic damage type keywords. I would also like to see more usage of the following effect keywords: charm, conjuration, fear, illusion, poison, and polymorph. As an aside, I did notice that there were missing keywords in many of the powers. For example, rolling boulder should probably have the Conjuration keyword like the flaming sphere power, hands of earth should have the Zone keyword.

3. I really like the thematic resonance of curses and I wish that more of the witch doctor's powers inflicted less damage and more minor penalties (not necessarily status effects), especially those that a save can end to better synergize with the evil eye power. I really think that the at-will powers need to be redrawn in this manner, since only one, serpent strike, involves an effect that can be ended by a saving throw.

4. I really enjoyed the fluff that emphasized the natural and spiritual aspects of the witch doctor's powers. More please.

5. Close walls are fine, but it would be my preference that wall powers actually create walls, otherwise, I think that a close blast works fine and creates less dissonance. I also dislike the wall powers that specify a wall of a straight line, but thats a personal preference.